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Final Fantasy VII devs recall leaving Nintendo platforms, Square was told to “never come back”

Posted on January 11, 2017 by (@NE_Brian) in General Nintendo, News

Square made a major change with the Final Fantasy series starting with the seventh entry. Whereas previous titles graced Nintendo hardware, Final Fantasy VII only ended up on PlayStation. Since then, Square Enix has kept the main entries off Nintendo platforms.

Earlier this week, Polygon published a massive feature on Final Fantasy VII, which includes interviews with many of the RPG’s developers. At one point, the conversation specifically focused on settling on the PlayStation over the N64. Character programmer Hiroshi Kawai said “you would get nowhere near anything like a Final Fantasy running” on Nintendo hardware, later adding that he heard from the big N to “never come back.”

Former Square president Hisashi Suzuki commented on this subject many years ago. At the time, he claimed Nintendo became frustrated when Square left, but also when when Square later helped convince others (like Enix), to leave as well.

Here’s the full excerpt:

Hironobu Sakaguchi – Politically it was a drastic change and a huge decision, but for me it was more of a natural decision because that was the hardware we needed to make the game.

Jun Iwasaki, Vice president of marketing, Square U.S. – I thought it was the right decision, but yeah, there was a lot of [tension] with Nintendo after.

Tomoyuki Takechi, President and chief executive officer, Square – It was pretty uncomfortable. There were about four to five years where we couldn’t really talk with Nintendo. We didn’t have a friendly relationship with them.

Shinichiro Kajitani, Vice president, Square USA – When we made the decision to go with Sony, for about 10 years we basically weren’t allowed into Nintendo’s offices. From a consumer’s point of view, it was good to have two companies competing with each other because prices wouldn’t rise and it would be better for them. But from a business perspective, our main interest was making sure that Sony won and Nintendo lost, basically, because that would be better for us.

George Harrison, Senior vice president, marketing and communications, Nintendo of America (1992-2007) – The period when PlayStation first arrived using CDs rather than cartridges was a tough period for Nintendo with publishers. Nintendo wanted to stay with cartridges to minimize counterfeiting but publishers wanted the extra capacity available on CDs. This was especially true for games like Final Fantasy with rich graphics.

Darren Smith, Project manager/manager, Nintendo of America (1993-2000) – I knew it was important [when Square left], and it certainly was a loss. But for me, it wasn’t such a devastating loss. I knew it was very important for [Nintendo in] Japan. I’m not so sure about the U.S. market. But we knew it was a big deal to have lost it on our system, and knowing that it would make Sony a bigger competitor, it just made the work that much more important.

Hiroshi Kawai, Character programmer, Square Japan – I’ll say this. I’m impressed with what Nintendo [was] able to do with the 64 hardware. Mario, Zelda — their devs must be top notch to be able to do that. But that’s essentially the extent of what you can do with the hardware. And you would get nowhere near anything like a Final Fantasy running on it.

Hironobu Sakaguchi – When we made our decision, the president of Square [Masafumi Miyamoto], our lead programmer [Ken Narita] and I went to a meeting with Yamauchi-san. There is an old cultural tradition where, in Kyoto, someone will welcome you with tea, but you’re not supposed to really drink that tea. It’s just polite to have it there. And Yamauchi-san welcomed us with a very expensive bento meal and beer, and gave us a very nice welcome and basically patted us on the back to say, “I wish you the best.” No bitter feelings or anything.

Hiroshi Kawai, Character programmer, Square Japan – I think [Sakaguchi] is just trying to be politically correct with that one.

Yoshihiro Maruyama, Executive vice president, Square U.S. – I don’t think [anyone from Nintendo gave us a hard time]. They said, “Oh, we don’t need that.” That’s what they said. [Laughs] Their philosophy has always been that Nintendo hardware is for their games, and if a publisher wants to publish, “OK you can do it.” But if you don’t like it, “We don’t want you.”

Hiroshi Kawai, Character programmer, Square Japan – What I heard was Nintendo said, “If you’re leaving us, never come back.”

Source

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  • Michael Cortorreal

    Yep, Nintendo is infamously reknown for treating third parties like garbage.

    Their business practices were horrible on the SNES era and they always go their way to make things a little difficult to develop for em.

    Hopefully Switch is the rise of a Neo Nintendo, but we shall see.

  • YamiryuuZero

    As much as I dislike the idea of Square leaving Nintendo, I recognize it was for the best. Nintendo got really arrogant during its golden age, and the consequences of that was losing all the third party support they needed to be in the top for the following 2 generations. But even after Iwata assumed the company and the Wii came out, they still treated their partners with a certain disdain, especially indie companies on the WiiWare service! And the Wii U, well, third parties made a point of not developing for it or making their ports come late and with missing features because it just wasn’t a justifiable investment!

    While I love Nintendo’s games and I do think their developers are great, I have to admit, their business decisions are nothing short of terrible! Hopefully their newly found humble mentality Iwata brought to the company, the heavy blow that was the flop of the Wii U and Kimishima’s experience in leading companies will change all of that with the Switch!

    • ForeVision

      I could not agree more with your words. Nintendo has fallen into quite the deep pit with Wii-U and the Switch should be them climbing back out again. This whole article is why I hope we see Final Fantasy back on a Nintendo system, so we can officially put an end to those days.

      • Gemmol Lewis

        I don’t know if you watch the 3ds but they made new IP and make lots of games for the 3ds…….they already back been back, they almost like a 2nd party studio with all the games they made for the 3ds…….this will pass on with the Switch since Japan love handhelds

        • ForeVision

          I know, I own a new 3DS XL and have played games like Final Fantasy Explorers on it. 3DS, however, is not their consoles, as on Nintendo CONSOLES it’s been very slim to none existent support.

          • Gemmol Lewis

            I did not write about Ninteno home consoles……I only spoke about handhelds, and on the handhelds……Square need Nintendo…..

      • Vigilante_blade

        Yeah, I remember the makers of Night Trap actually being very angry with Nintendo and refusing to go anywhere near Nintendo consoles where questioned on their last Kickstarter. They wouldn’t talk about it, but it felt like genuine hatred.

        • ForeVision

          The kind that doesn’t come from a spur of the moment, but is accumulated over a long period of time, right? It all falls into place when you look at the Wii-U.

      • Jon Turner

        The good news is that Switch IS compatible enough to run both KH3 and FFVII:Remake. I don’t know about FFXV, but if the Switch is indeed powerful, it could happen. Plus, both Tetsuya Nomura and Hajime Tabata both expressed interested in Switch. So it COULD happen.

        • Vjon

          its using nvidia cloud gaming

        • Vigilante_blade

          To me, FF7 on Switch would make sense. They didn’t release that Cloud amiibo yet.

        • Ben Sylvia

          eh, I’d really only want FFVII remake on Switch so there’d be a justifiable reason to have Cloud in Smash as the face of the franchise instead of someone from one of the Nintendo era games who could have better represented the various weapons/fighting styles present throughout the series instead of just a dude swinging a sword around.

        • Andrew Markham

          Already been put out there that the switch is less powerful than PS4/Xbox One so don’t hold your breath on getting FFXV, KH3, and VII remake.

          • ForeVision

            Did Nintendo confirm that? Was that from an actual official source? If not I’ll believe it when I see it, during today’s presentation.

          • Andrew Markham

            Actually yes when they said they were not going with the latest Nvidia chip in the line…..

          • ForeVision

            Which doesn’t automatically mean it being weaker. They said they were going with a custom chip, which can be strong enough. I, once more, point to today’s presentation, to find out.

  • No wonder those losers over at Square Enix US
    didn’t bother localizing the Dragon Quest games on DS, Wii and 3DS.
    Didn’t touch Bravely Default or Second.

    Nintendo did all the work for us. Thanks Nintendo. Currently playthrough Dragon Quest VII. Hopefully Bravely Third and Dragon Quest XI are shown tomorrow.

    • Gamer_Greg

      Still playing through Bravely Second myself. The first 8 months were Fire Emblem Fates (all 3), then started Bravely Second. I’m getting close to finishing that one finally (on NG+), then looking to start DQ7 and 8. Just been super busy with awesome RPGs!

    • Vigilante_blade

      Calling them losers for it is missing the point.

  • Sounds like some major drama. But then, Yamauchi was a bit of a… you-know-what.

    That said, it’s kind of cool that in that era you had two competing consoles with fundamentally different capabilities. The N64 could never have run a Final Fantasy (of the type Square envisioned during that era), but the PS1 could never have run an Ocarina of Time or Goldeneye. It was a different landscape.

    • Exy

      And now that the consoles are so fundamentally similar, we’ll probably never have a meaningful console war like the old days again.

  • ジョシュ

    I don’t care. I love nintendo and their games are the best games in the market. I can live without call of duty, mortal kombat, uncharted, gravity rush, etc…can’t say the same about nintendo games. I can’t live without mario games, zelda games, animal crossing, super smash bros, mario kart, those are really good games (at least for me)

    • theFooFighter

      I found the fanboy

      • JasonBall

        So what? What’s so bad about that?

        • ForeVision

          A fan is good, fanboys tend to ignore bad decisions of a company, buy blatantly bad games of said company, and defend them even if they were to horribly mutilate freshly born kittens. It’s highly unreasonable to say the least.

          • JasonBall

            Brand loyalty never killed anyone.

          • Vigilante_blade

            I actually wouldn’t be surprised if a fanboy killed another / incited suicide in someone else.

          • JasonBall

            Difference between fanboy and bigoted lunatic.

          • Vigilante_blade

            To me, a fanboy IS the bigoted lunatic.

            I am a fan. I like Nintendo IP. I care about them, but I don’t defend Nintendo’s bad decisions.

            A fanboy kinda of goes a step further than just being a fan. At their most base form, they excuse anything the company does, sometimes to the point of aggressively defending their actions. At their worst, they tell people to kill themselves because they enjoy Melee, like I’ve personally experienced at joint Melee/Brawl events.

            My heart tells me that I should be mad at Square for leaving Nintendo consoles. My brain however, which I use for thought, tells me that it was Nintendo that put them in this situation. Never follow your heart. Follow your brain whenever you can help it.

            The “boy” in fanboy refers to that childish naiveté that some have towards the gaming world. Like a child, the fanboy does not have fully developed empathy, or a sense that others can think differently. “This is mine, so it is better”. This is something a normal growing adult, while they sometimes indulge in this behaviour, understand happens for the most part after some thought. I consider myself a fan, not a fanboy of Nintendo. I do not wish to associate with the same people I’ve met at joint smash events that could not tolerate differing opinions. I played some Sony systems, I played PC games. I ventured into other systems to see the world for what it really is. It is not black or white. It is not made up of heroes and villains. It is made up of multifaceted people who have good in them, but also, deep darkness.

            All companies want your money, nothing more, nothing less. They don,t care about you, are willing to abandon you on a dime for a quick buck. None of them love you. They care about you as far as your wallet can reach. Being a fanboy, to me, is a disservice to the gaming community at large, but especially, a disservice to your fellow “fans”.

          • JasonBall

            Okay yeah, I don’t mean to defend the kinds of violent arguers or bigots you describe. That’s just wrong. But… fanboy doesn’t have to be always bad, and the word shouldn’t be universally associated with hate and violence.

          • ForeVision

            Why not just stick with Fan then? It’s universal (applies to both genders) and doesn’t have the same tinge as fanboy does, since as far as I know that word already has a negative tone for many people.

          • Vigilante_blade

            I think our disagreement stems from how we defined our terms. We have a different definition of the same word, so we talk over each other.

            I see the “fan” as the reasonable person you describe. I see the “fanboy” as the irrational kind that indulges in voluntary ignorance and/or agressive behaviour in the name of “positivity”.

          • JasonBall

            Fair

          • ForeVision

            Do you think there was something as stupid as the “console wars” something named for one of the most horrific events in human history, if it was not for misplaced brand loyalty?

          • JasonBall

            Are you trying to say the console wars were one of the most horrific events in human history?

          • Vigilante_blade

            Well… from a moral standpoint, people got pretty vicious. Wouldn’t call ti one of the worst in human history, but certainly one fo the worst in gaming history.

          • ForeVision

            Did you overlook the “named for”? Or are you trying to say that a war should not be classified as one of the most horrific events in human history?

          • JasonBall

            Sorry didn’t see the “named for”

          • ForeVision

            No worries.

          • Vjon

            im sorry but ジョシュ being honest is just another way to get insulted

          • ForeVision

            Insulted? Did anyone insult him? No, we’re merely discussing things, and if you say something at a forum or any public talking/discussion site, then you’re probably going to get responses.

          • Vjon

            Responses are like minded comments by reasonable individuals, getting trolled because you like nintendo is all too common – at the core i question whether we actually understand what a bad video game is? The market seems far too geared towards strange or niche concepts to me, its like being told you dont like a fine wine or drama movie cos you’re not ‘mature’ – Nintendo are fine to me. If not making enough money… then they should close down, not give in to pressures of making money by adopting x86 processors just to keep games coming for xbox? That seems to be a theme to me?

          • Aoi

            well I don’t know what that deleted comment said but when someone labels him a fanboy and someone feels the need to link that to a bigoted lunatic, I’d say that person was insulted…

          • ForeVision

            The previous comment probably didn’t even read the bigoted lunatic part. That said, I don’t remember it.

        • theFooFighter

          It doesn’t affect me at all because I own multiple platforms but fanboys are the ones that miss out on dozens of good games because brand loyalty

      • Ektoras Kalderis

        We are all fanboys since we comment on a Nintendo fan site. Blind fanboys ofc are another thing

      • DrWilly

        A Nintendo fanboy on a Nintendo site? I’m shocked!

        • Roto Prime

          The truth is out there!

        • hi v3.0

          LOL

    • Roto Prime

      Same here my dude, Last gen only had a 3DS and Wii U, Nintendo 100% completed me, hope for the same and more on Switch.

      • ForeVision

        Roto, even you in your boundless enthusiasm cannot deny that the Wii-U suffered from their actions back then. Embrace the need for third-party, unless you’d like Nintendo to transform into the Titanic.

        • Roto Prime

          I won’t ever deny Nintendo’s shortcomings. Just stating that from gamecube all the way to Wii I needed a playstation or Xbox to get my full enjoyment. The Wii U and 3DS had so many perfect games, never ever needed a ps4 or xbox one.

          • ForeVision

            Surely you’d like yourself a broader choice in the genres you already enjoy. I believe, without a shred of doubt in my mind, that it would benefit all parties involved if the “curse” as people call it ends with the Switch.

          • Roto Prime

            Hell ya, I wan’t all my games and all other games on Nintendo system. If you see my comments all I ask for is Dark Soul’s 3 on Nintendo Switch, I’m not trying to say I don’t need 3rd party. What I’m trying to say is that Nintendo had a perfect gaming library for me last gen, did not need a Xbox one to play Dark Soul’s or Gears of war (;____; Scalebound), did not need a ps4 to play………to play……….Little big planet 3?!

          • Indielink

            I fall into the Roto camp here too. I acknowledge Nintendo’s shortcomings and problems but at the end of the day they’re really all that I need. I like my PS4 and there are some games like Last Guardian and Until Dawn that I’ve really enjoyed, but if I were to sell it to pay for the Switch, even if it doesn’t get great third party support I would be okay. I like other games, but games made by Nintendo just FEEL better somehow.

          • ForeVision

            That is fine, just keep in mind that Nintendo needs more than those that think like you do.

          • Indielink

            Oh no I am absolutely aware, and a lot of the changes that you guys want I thinks that I would like to have. I would love to be able to play Dark Souls and Dying Light and other things of that nature on one system but at the end of the day I just much prefer Zelda.

          • ForeVision

            I know that polish you’re talking about with Nintendo products. At the same time though, I know that having good third-party games gives those who make those games the breathing room to make them the best they can be, without people breathing down their neck, reminding them that if it’s a drought period again unless they release that game in time.

            I get that argument of buying a Nintendo system for Nintendo games, but it’s about time things changed for the better in that regard. That way, people will buy Nintendo systems for overall line-up that will have their competitors hard pressed to beat, instead of buying it as the extra machine because it has Nintendo games.

          • Vigilante_blade

            Yep, always expect more. Go beyond! Plus ultra!

          • Indielink

            I think that’s the big thing Nintendo is trying to avoid with the Switch, consolidating into one consoles means all parties are working on one system and that should potentially kill any drought periods. Looking back at the WiiU and 3DS era, the systems basically took on and off periods where they got games. WiiU had all of 2014 and the back half of 2015 and the first few months of 2016 and the 3DS took everything else.

            I would like to see the third parties come back to Nintendo. I would like to not have not needed to spend 300 on a PS4, and I would like Nintendo to make a powerful system so that the PS4Pro wouldn’t look so appealing to me.

          • ForeVision

            Getting third-parties also means embracing competition. They don’t have to have yet another console like the Xbox or PS, but the third-party wants the best buck for their game.

    • I agree with the other but Gravity Rush is like the only one I will tell a Nintendo fan to play and maybe Sly Cooper.

  • Roto Prime

    Yamauchi-sama <3

    • Ektoras Kalderis

      He wasn’t so loving you know. He run Nintendo with an iron fist and he treated 3rd party like sh*t. Although i must admit and i am sure Square and Enix will admit that they made millions upn millions in the Nes and SNES era.

      • Roto Prime

        We would not be enjoying Nintendo, xbox or playstation if not for Yamauchi-sama <3

      • Aoi

        sounds like a traditional company president lol but he did make a great decision in appointing Iwata who was the first from outside his family though

    • hi v3.0

      No
      He was being a d*ck to Sony back then

      • Roto Prime

        I love Yamauchi-sama! you should too

        • hi v3.0

          I don’t really know him so no

  • theFooFighter

    Both the ps1 and n64 ended up being great so it wasn’t a complete loss but Nintendo would have completely destroyed the competition if they were the ones getting final fantasy and metal gear and tomb raider. Like I honestly doubt both Sega and Sony would have come out of that generation if Nintendo had that kind of support

    • ForeVision

      You know what they say, to learn, one must make mistakes. And I highly doubt they’ll look back on these kinds of events and think “We’ve done well by then” especially since it’s come back to haunt them like a dark omen during the Wii-U.

  • JasonBall

    That doesn’t explain why they became Sony’s little b**** though.

    • ForeVision

      Because Sony made the platform that supported their games, and didn’t treat them horribly I’d reckon. Would you stay with an abusive friend that that treats you like sh!t, or go with the kind trustworthy one?

    • Ektoras Kalderis

      From a busines point of you it was the best decision.

    • theFooFighter

      Because sony was simply the go to platform for RPGs during the ps1 and 2 eras. Then the Wii and Wii u were well the Wii and Wii u, kinda hard to getting ff13 or 15 running on their hardware

      • Gemmol Lewis

        Nope square went to Nintendo handhelds, this why you can play all dragon quest 1 to 11 on Nintendo handhelds, no other place can do that………and this why they made so many new IP for Nintendo handheld that will transfer to the Switch………they need Nintendo handheld more than Sony, this where most of their sales are

        • ForeVision

          You keep thinking your delusions, as long as Nintendo truly knows what’s up, and their recent wordings and workings seem to imply that they do.

          • Gemmol Lewis

            what delusions……..I wrote about Nintendo handheld…….did you see me write about Nintendo Home Console…….and as I said Square Enix need Nintendo Handheld…..do you not see all the things they release on the 3ds and ds……..they remade Dragon quest 7 just for the 3ds, they took Dragon Quest 8 which was for Sony and made a version for the 3DS with extra features, they made new IP Bravely Default and many more……..are you blind to what they do for the HANDHELD ?

          • ForeVision

            Alright then, sit down because this might take a while 1. The Dragon Quest series is on 3DS handheld because that’s what sells. You know what doesn’t? the Vita. You know what other set of devices receive their fair share of Square’s development time these days? Smartphones, in fact there’s even DQ 8: Journey of the Cursed King on there.

            2. So many new IP for Nintendo handheld hm? Alright, let’s take a look at what we’ve got here (not counting the JP only as region lock would prevent U.A./European people from playing those): Theatrhythm Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts 3: Dream Drop Distance, Bravely Default: Flying Fairy, Dragon Quest VII, Theatrhyhtm Final Fantasy: Curtain Call, Final Fantasy Explorers, Bravely Second: End Layer (from the Wiki for Square Enix games)

            You know what I’m seeing? All of these games are parts of an existing franchise, and most of them are spin-offs (if you consider that Bravely Default: Flying Fairy was inspired/based upon: Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light) so where’s that “new” of yours?

            And no I’m not blind to what they do for the handheld, there are a couple of games on there, but I see the entire picture and within that picture is a Home Console called Wii-U that didn’t receive any support.

        • theFooFighter

          You’re a delusional fanboy. The world doesn’t revolve around Nintendo, yes square will make a lot of money off of the switch but the same can be said for the ps4

          • Gemmol Lewis

            so one game like Dragon Quest selling a few millions on the 3ds or ds……equal same profit of PS4 dragon quest that sell 800k copies……I just want to hear what you think?? me personally I think just 300k copies on 3ds or ds still give more profit than 800k copies sold on PS4………..you said ps4 can make same, but do you really really believe that??

          • theFooFighter

            Ff15 broke 6 million copies shipped. Dragon quest builders broke 1 million, tomb raider does well, Deus ex and human do well. Just about everything square releases on the ps4 is at least moderately successful. They would take a hit without Nintendo handhelds but despite what you think they wouldn’t go under

          • Gemmol Lewis

            You know what’s funny about that 6 million shipped, when they bring up dragon quest sales they reported how many sold to customers, it’s great they made 6 million from retailers, but you have to look at it like this, if retailers over brought copies thinking they will sell and they didn’t sell well, they won’t be so eager to buy extra copies for the next Square Enix release………..im not saying Somy bad for them just saying as of lately those small games that don’t take much to make on Nintendo handheld is getting their interest because it gives them big profit back……….look at it like this why dragon quest 11 not coming out for the Vita when its stronger than 3ds, they could of made some changes here and there to have it on all 4 consoles 3ds, switch, ps4 and vita……..

          • ForeVision

            “look at it like this why dragon quest 11 not coming out for the Vita when its stronger than 3ds” Which part of Vita is kinda dead/barely sells anything don’t you understand?

          • Gemmol Lewis

            Actually in Japan the Vita still have a heart beat and didn’t it just get a dragon quest game last year that also came on the ps4, so your point makes no excuse, look at japan sales chart for this weekend I think a Vita game got the 4th spot

          • ForeVision

            So simply because it does a little better in Japan it’s all good? Not only do you ignore the rest of the world, but you also forget that the 3DS does heaps better in Japan. Hell I wouldn’t be surprised if Smartphones did better than Vita.

            My point about the Vita being nearly dead, still stands. If you wish to be ignorant about it, that’s your choice, but don’t ignore facts.

          • Gemmol Lewis

            did you see how many Square Enix games coming to the Switch……Dragon Quest 10, Dragon Quest 11, I am setsuna, Dragon Quest heroes 1, Dragon Quest heroes 2, a new IP from Bravely Default team and many more i missed…….does this show proof I was right on how Square cant ignore Nintendo as before

          • ForeVision

            You’re still on with this? Look mate, I’ve made my arguments and rest my case, you believe what you want, but I won’t change my points.

            Last thing I’ll say on the subject, the Switch is a promising, albeit unproven new system. Nintendo has many things which can ruin it (such as the pricing on the new paid online model) Square, like other 3rd parties wouldn’t stick with a Titanic.

          • Shipped does not mean sold though. They can ship how many ever they want, but if it doesn’t sell, that’s lost money sitting there on the shelves. The game has barely hit ~900k. They’re struggling to maintain their prior success and themselves and even called Hitman and TR failures last gen. (Which to me they weren’t, but that said something about their expectations; hopefully not about budget and what they needed to make to break even/make profit.)

            Square has been in trouble recently, hence so many of their internal changes and restructuring. They’re probably starting to pick up now, but we also can’t pretend that a lot of that was from Nintendo support.

    • Exy

      Sony was good to them and that was all they needed at the time.

    • Roto Prime

      Sony had stock’s from Square soft…..

    • Abra

      money…

    • Vigilante_blade

      Trust me, I wanted Final Fantasy and other Square games to remain on Nintendo consoles. In my mind, FF7 is a meant to be on Nintendo platforms. Nevertheless, Nintendo has always been a very insular company. They tried to play it solo in a world where they needed allies. Instead of appreciating the help of said allies, they took the stance of going “Working for us is a privilege. Pay more royalties”.

      Sony gave them a great deal, and from then on, they built a massive audience there.

      Nintendo was in a position to dominated, but they squandered it by becoming arrogant.

      Keep in mind, Nintendo isn’t the only one to ever have become arrogant. Microsoft showed an example of that with XBOX One when they tried to forced always on DRM. Sony got very arrogant during the PS3 era after the PS2’s success, but fortunately changed its course early.mBoth of them got arrogant when forcing online fees on their playerbase.

      In these cases though, when players complained, they adjusted their behaviour. Nintendo hasn’t yet. Apologists are not helping either.

      • Aoi

        Sounds to me you still think Nintendo are still being arrogant. In which way do you think the current nintendo is being so? Once Iwata took over the so called “Working for us is a privilege. Pay more royalties” stance died off.

        • ForeVision

          I may be wrong here so say if so Vigilante, but I think he means that the Wii-U was not as developer friendly due to the gamepad, and how it was forced in some games. (sorry if I’m taking away your responses, I have to do something while chaining for shiny Pokemons :D)

          • Aoi

            That part I can understand but not sure if I’d call it arrogance. I do recall indie developers saying Nintendo are always helpful when they got questions about how to develop for the system. However, yea It was one of the points that killed the 3rd party for the wii u, being hard to develop for and all. If rumours are correct though, the switch should be alot easier to develop, then I’d count that as a lesson learnt noi? (playing pokemon since blue, no shiny ever seen :/ )

          • ForeVision

            Time for a little off topic, but are you playing Sun/Moon right now? If you are, google chaining for those games, it may require some patience but you’ll have your shinies.

            Back on topic, yes I’d assume so, but we don’t know, save for a couple of devs saying how easy it is to develop for. That said, Nvidia’s stuff is inside, and people have been working with that for quite some time.

          • Aoi

            Yep literally just finish the elite 4 yesterday. Just checked that chaining method, definitely sounds more doable than randomly encountering or completing the pokedex, thanks for the tip!
            Well just the waiting game to play now and we’ll see how many third parties are on board from the get-go.

          • ForeVision

            As many on the Internet will say, complete the Pokedex. It may seem like a hassle, and a lot of *insert rude word here* are asking for legendaries for much required pokes, but you’ll find good trades if you go around (GTS), and if you complete the dex, it makes your chances when you’re past (I think it was 70 chains?) from 1/1084 to 1/684, definitely worth it from my own experience (I have a shiny charm, and got me a Dewpider, Rockruff, Fluffel (the pre of bewear don’t know the exact name), 2 Togedemaru (My first was Modest, couldn’t live with that, Staryu and Sandslash with it so far).

          • Vigilante_blade

            You seem to be really into it. I’ve been breeding alolan vulpixes with moves they can’t learn without breeding if you would like one.

            Timid

            Freeze-dry
            Moonblast
            Hidden power Fire
            Aurora veil

            Snow warning.

            The IVs are not perfect, but bottlecaps can fix that.

            If you are interested, I can just give you one of them. I want nothing particular in return. They are interesting to use for a hail team or as a support.

          • ForeVision

            I thank you for the offer, but I’m not interested in an Alolan Ninetales. I’m working on catching shinies at the moment, and have quite the line-up ready (including a near perfect IV’s Shiny Jolly Flufful)

          • Vigilante_blade

            Nice, cool find.

          • ForeVision

            That said, if you find an interesting team that helps against that damnable Battle Tree, let me know (I’ve cursed on that place so many times, simply because the computer gets “lucky” or has impossible things going on)

          • Vigilante_blade

            I’ll say, I generally found Speed Boost Blaziken to work well in earlier games because giving it Protect makes it faster than most Pokemon. Once we can transfer mons, I could try and breed one for you.

          • ForeVision

            I remember getting one during I think it was X/Y. Having a good one of those would be cool though. But right now I’m trying to get by with what I can get to, since bank isn’t released. Currently I’m using the All to well-known Pheromosa with the equally well-known Aegislash and I’ve got A-Marowak with them.

          • Vigilante_blade

            I actually got 3 shinies randomly. I think the rate is better. And yep, chaining works. If you want another tip, the longer the chain, the more chances of getting a shiny, hidden abilities and perfect IVs. You can get up to 4 guaranteed perfect IVs from it.

            If you want a specific ability, you can bring say… An eggegutor with worry seed. It will show the pokemon’s ability.

            If you want a specific nature, have a pokemon with synchronize of that specific nature (abra line for example). Want a timid vulpix? Get a timid alakazam (or Kadabra) with synchronize. If it is out when the pokemon calls for help, it is much more likely to call a timid pokemon. You can also put a symchronize pokemon in front of your party before fighting a legendary and try to get the nature you want much more easily for it.

            Combine these, and you could even get a shiny with stats that are to your liking. This is complicated to set up, but once you do, it saves a lot of time when it comes to building a good team.

            I hope this helps!

          • Vigilante_blade

            Nintendo to me has shown arrogance in several fields with Wii U. They miscalculated the effect that the Wii had on the market thought they could easily replicate its sales without any sizeable marketing. The truth is that the Wii caused a major schism. Core and hardcore gamers left in droves due to not being catered to sufficiently while casual users left due to smart devices becoming the new popular thing. Ultimately, the Wii name was worthless. It wasn’t enough to grab interest. People moved on.

            Many developers (like Bethesda) also complained that Nintendo was not open to discuss wanted features for third parties with them. In the end, Nintendo did its own thing and made it hard on everyone to develop games for their systems. Low specs, antiquated architecture, a forced gimmick… A mere chat with other developpers would have revealed that this made their lives harder.

            They also have shown arrogance towards fans as well. They go after youtubers instead of simply accepting free publicity. They tried to shut down competitive Melee streams at EVO and only stepped back once a major outcry made them look bad. They also try to forced certain playstyles and gimmicks on players, blaming consumers for “not understanding their vision” when they are actually to blame for the backlash through their own blindness of what their fans want from them. Even after the backlash behind the last three Paper Mario games, they continue to not make a simple Thousand Year Door that everyone wants from them. Nintendo needs to get over its misunderstood artist complex and understand that they are selling products and can’t blame consumers when they haven’t done anything to make products that entice them and foster brand trust.

            Nintendo has never been so unsuccessful before, so I am hoping that this humbled them and that they will be on a path to redemption.

            They’ve since been way less limiting when it comes to royalties, but the damage done back then still affects them today.

          • Vigilante_blade

            That is part of it, yep. And worries.

    • Heh, I think they were butthurt. But I can also believe that Sony was kind of slick back in the day on courting publishers. The irony is people talking about Nintendo’s arrogance of then, that’s Sony now. They’ve made some ruthless decisions in the past few years; the kind of decisions that Iwata did the very opposite of.

      And now third parties with clout are clamoring to keep Sony’s grace for trying to look good, and it’s hurting them financially. The petty part of me thinks, “that’s what you get, but there’s also a sad part of me worried for the industry and sad for how some of my beloved franchises have fallen so far. (Tales of, Final Fantasy).

    • Wanderlei

      Because Sony send them broke with stupid expensive Final Fantasy movie because they owned a bunch of stock. Its literally the turning point when the SE decline started.

  • Kenshin0011

    “Nintendo wanted to stay with cartridges to minimize counterfeiting but publishers wanted the extra capacity available on CDs.”

    A grand example of how Nintendo can be extremely selfish at the expense of not only third party devs, but consumers. These cartridges were also very expensive at retail.

    • Exy

      In their defense, cartridge copiers were a big enough problem for them at the time that they felt they had to protect their bottom line at any cost. PS1 piracy was easier than N64 piracy as a result, but we all saw the real cost of that.

      • Roto Prime

        More systems sold?

        • Exy

          All the third parties Nintendo wish they could have. Sony charging only $10 for third-party certification was a big factor for that too.

          • Roto Prime

            Nice, wonder if it’s the same for ps vita. Did not know any of this.

          • Exy

            Sony was all about hoarding as much third-party support as possible when they entered the market. Probably the best example (and my favorite) was E3 1995, when Sega introduced the Sega Saturn and its price of $399. During the PlayStation reveal, the announcement of the price consisted entirely of the president of SCEA walking up to stage, saying “$299” and leaving right afterward as everyone cheered.

          • Roto Prime

            lololololol Sounds epic.

          • Exy

            Sony did something kind of like that again in 2013 when they revealed how game sharing would work on PS4, compared to the convoluted process on Xbox One. I hope there could be something like that in tomorrow’s conference but it isn’t Nintendo’s style.

          • ForeVision

            So if I’m reading this right, they’re looking at their competition, learning from their mistakes and doing it better? Sounds like regular competition alright.

            Might not be their style, but even regular old Nintendo could do with a change here and there. I’d say it would be a welcome one.

          • Roto Prime

            I was thinking the same thing when I read the Sega and Sony thing you posted.

      • Kenshin0011

        It wasn’t worth it under the circumstances, not even close.

    • That said, doesn’t that also hurt the developers/publishers, because they loose money that way too?

      • Kenshin0011

        What, the piracy? Sure, but going with outdated and inconvenient hardware wasn’t the answer

        • I don’t disagree entirely, but it’s not like Nintendo’s selfishness there/in that case just protected them.

  • hi v3.0

    Thus the third party abandoning begins since then. Nintendo thinks all they need is Mario and Zelda..

    • ForeVision

      And reality has a way of smacking you in the face like that. Their words of third-party acknowledgement are encouraging, but they have to still show proof of having actually learned. Switch will provide an answer.

      • hi v3.0

        That was only 3 months ago, we are talking about the 90s here

  • Gemmol Lewis

    If Nintendo do that right now, tell them don’t come back…..they will be hurt and maybe break apart……..since the Nintendo DS Square Enix been all over Nintendo, and the 3DS era. There’s no other place to play all dragon quest 1 to 11 but on Nintendo handheld. They also made new IP for Nintendo handheld that bring them serious profits, just like Capcom they see how much sales they get from Japan on Nintendo handheld. This why they betting on the Switch, another Nintendo handheld, putting Dragon Quest 11 on it. They did not have to, they could of left it 3ds and ps4, but they were so excited for Switch they confirm the first Switch game and then have to deny it…….Square and every other Japanese developers putting all their eggs on Nintendo Switch……if Nintendo tell them go……..they as a company will bankrupt or get smaller. Look at all their PS4 games they barely reach a million sales

    • Roto Prime

      <3 <3 <3

    • ForeVision

      I’m sorry, but this part is outright delusional “Square and every other Japanese developers putting all their eggs on Nintendo Switch……if Nintendo tell them go……..they as a company will bankrupt or get smaller. Look at all their PS4 games they barely reach a million sales”. It
      is Nintendo who crushed their own third-party relations back then. It is Nintendo who did not accommodate and work with third-parties which soured their relationship during the NES era and onward. The full spectrum was reached during the Wii-U, where third-party support has
      outright stopped, massively contributing to it’s demise.

      If Square truly NEEDS Nintendo as you so like to put it, then why is the Final Fantasy 7 remake being made for PS? Why is FFVX on every platform EXCEPT for Nintendo’s? Why is Kingdom Hearts 3 not slated for Switch? The answer is simple, because they don’t. Nintendo has only recently actually stated and recognized that they require third party support, after a long period in which they’ve deemed themselves above requiring it.

      • Jon Turner

        Which is why there is hope for KH3 to be slated for Switch AND FFVII:Remake as well. The Switch CAN run UE4. WiiU could not.

        • Gemmol Lewis

          it wasnt just hope, there was a rumor before dragon quest 11 got confirm than deny by Square enix because it was too early to confirm any Switch games at the time…..but back to what I was saying before Dragon Quest 11 ever had any confirmation, there were rumors of FFXV, FF 7 remake, Kingdom Heart 3, and Dragon Quest 11 coming to the Switch…….im not saying it will come true, but so far DQ11 came out to be true, and I am guessing if sales of DQ11 is nicer on it than PS4, I bet the others will come, because Japan mostly use handhelds.

      • Gemmol Lewis

        Actually if you look online, there were rumors of Kingdom Heart 3, FFXV with all DLC or the ones that already out for Switch, and even a copy of Final Fantasy 7 remake for Switch………These rumors came out around the time of Dragon Quest 11 for Switch rumors…..which Square Enix confirm early for Switch, but then went back and deny……………the whole problem with your post, you keep bringing up Nintendo the Home Console which have issues…………………Nintendo the HANDHELD do not have issues with Square Enix……..and I do not understand why you bringing up Nintendo Home Consoles……..when I said nothing about them……………….lets go back to the Subject……..Nintendo Handheld is needed by Square Enix…….if you cannot see all the games they put on it, than there is nothing I can do for you………you can go keep comparing Nintendo home consoles third party against Sony………….if it help you sleep at night………..but remember Nintendo Handheld even got their own Grand Theft Auto which a Nintendo home console did not……..I bring this up why……because Nintendo handheld do not get 3rd party issues

        • ForeVision

          You know the difference between a rumor and official confirmation? Also do you even know why they’re releasing it on Nintendo handheld? Maybe because that’s the only thing that IS selling?

          You can babble all you want about the Nintendo handheld, but, even if it were to continue via the Switch, that would still be HYBRID not a handheld, which is important because it taps into 2 large potential audiences, and consolidates development on 1 system.

          Why I brought up console when you spoke of handheld? Because you generalized the entirety of Square Enix in needing Nintendo, as if Square makes only 3DS titles, of course I’ll have to point out how that makes no sense at all.

  • DrWilly

    This is so infuriating to read, that Hiroshi Kawai sounds like a massive tool. I hope Nintendo steals as many japanese third-party exclusives away from Sony with the Switch. That will be the ultimate revenge on Sony IMO. I guess we’ll see in two days.

    • Vigilante_blade

      No offense, but Nintendo did this to themselves. Sony had little to do with it.

      • ben

        hmm.. that is half true. The fact Sony were not that innocent at that time. Sony were pretty rough on Sega.

        • ForeVision

          But that doesn’t relate to what transpired between Nintendo and Square Enix. I’m sure Sony had their moments as well, but that’s not the subject matter.

    • Blanco8x8

      I’m more interested in Nintendo’s revenge against Microsoft than Sony. The loss of Rare is way worse than the loss of Square Enix, IMO.

      • hi v3.0

        Rare is dead, at least Square Enix is just as alive, Playtonic and Retro is the new Rare

      • Vigilante_blade

        Nintendo literally sold Rare. Microsoft stole nothing.

    • Jon Turner

      That happened over 20 years ago. Nobody at SquareEnix holds any such grudges against Nintendo these days. The people responsible for the grudge have either retired or died at both Nintendo and SE.

    • He really does. He sounds like he’s a little burned by what Nintendo accomplished, especially because his own role in terms of the relationship back then was very small.

      But indeed, hoping the support is there. And not just for Nintendo and fans like me that want the games, but for how the industry is shaping up. I don’t think Nintendo would allow a company to take so long to make a game or go through such a ridiculous process and they tend to have much better quality control. I want to see that return to the industry as a whole.

  • Uncle Phil Hug

    You guys know Square did come back multiple times to publish many games for Nintendo, right
    Including Final Fantasy games

    • MagcargoMan

      Not any real ones.

      • Roto Prime

        Dragon Quest IX was photo shopped!

        • MagcargoMan

          He said Final Fantasy.

          • Roto Prime

            But, but your right!…

      • ForeVision

        Exactly. The only one in recent memory is Final Fantasy Explorers on 3DS, which is a spin-off. The same goes for the very good, albeit not main-line games of Final Fantasy.

      • Uncle Phil Hug

        Theatrhythm was just my fevered dream

        • MagcargoMan

          Not a real Final Fantasy.

          • Uncle Phil Hug

            Square was told to “never come back” so they only made exclusive games from then on. Because that’s what “never come back” means. “Only make spinoffs!”

            PS Let’s be real – Final Fantasy has been crap since number 9, with the exception of 12

          • That’s all that needed to be said. (I’m still playing XI though, and they’ve done better with it, so I would include it.)

    • hi v3.0

      Only the tactic game for GBA… And spinoff Kingdom Hearts and Bravely Default and DQ remakes

      • Uncle Phil Hug

        and crystal chronicles
        and chocobo thingy
        and after years
        and deus ex for wiiu
        and omg look
        http://nintendo.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Square_Enix_games

        • Vigilante_blade

          All of he are bad to ok spinoffs or remasters.

          • Uncle Phil Hug

            “Never come back” == “please release exclusive spinoffs”

        • Roto Prime

          They don’t count, there all photo shopped!

  • Vigilante_blade

    What Nintendo SHOULD have done. Ask one, single question:

    “Why are you leaving?”

    • theFooFighter

      What Nintendo should have asked towards the end of the SNES is “what do you want from the ultra 64”

      • Blanco8x8

        What more do they want besides CDs? The N64 essentially skipped the 32 bit generation and its games blew many people away.

        I seriously can’t stand the PS1, the only game I enjoyed out of it was Metal Gear Solid, everything else was ugly pseudo-3D pixels.

        • Vigilante_blade

          I think the PS1 aged horribly. Nevertheless, Nintendo did not pay attention to the needs of their partners, and that is why they are here today: a non-competitor that Sony and Microsoft hardly care about.

          • Blanco8x8

            And why should third parties have more control in the industry than Nintendo? They should stay humble like the amateurs they are.

          • theFooFighter

            That is literally one of the dumbest things I’ve read all week

          • Vigilante_blade

            Did you just call them amateurs? Some of these third parties are craftsmen that made some of the greatest games ever made. Heck, many people stated that Dark Souls saved gaming for them for example.

            It’s hardly “control” though. It’s “cooperation”. Instead of going all solo cowboy, Nintendo should work with them, talk to them. I honestly agree with theFooFighter, this was the dumbest thing I’ve heard all week, and I work in a field where I am paid to listen to dumb things.

          • hi v3.0

            One of the dumbest comments I’ve ever read

          • ForeVision

            It is that exact thinking that led up to, and is probably responsible for, a large majority of the Wii-U’s failure, not to mention a thought like it started the soured relationships between Nintendo and third-parties.

        • theFooFighter

          The ps1 was awesome you could easily argue that it had the best library of that gen but I’d say it’s at least equal to the n64

          • ForeVision

            You remind me of some awesome games I’ve played on that system as a kid. Too bad I’ve gamed my Playstation to it’s expiration date.

    • Maybe they felt betrayed and pissed for going with Sony to publish the game.

      • Vigilante_blade

        That is possible, but then again, reacting through emotion alone always leads to disastrous results.

  • nekoknight

    Who knew the video game industry was such a soap opera back then. As a side note, I still think that Square could have made Final Fantasy VII for the N64, just that it would have been very different from the PlayStation version and wouldn’t have CGI cut scenes.

  • ChaosNocturne

    final failure 7 and up are garbage anyway the last good one was 6

  • ben

    The nintendo 64 was a bad console. Worse than the wii u in many ways. The sales may say otherwise but… the actual product was not fun to play. It was the only time in the history of gaming that I totally abandoned Nintendo and moved to PC and Sony.
    It took some great leadership from Iwata to turn the company around.

  • Tlink7

    Sins of the father…
    It’s 2017 now Squeenix, better not let some ancient guff stop us Nintendo fans from enjoying your games c:

  • Addy

    Nintendo shooing away a third party company before the Wii U.

    • Jon Turner

      This was 20 years ago. N and SE have made up since then.

      • Addy

        And so far all Nintendo got were spinoffs and remakes when it comes to Final Fantasy games.

        • ForeVision

          They can’t put a mainstream Final Fantasy on 3DS now can they? And the Wii-U doesn’t have the sales nor the power I’d reckon.

          • Addy

            Nope, instead they put remakes on phones and look terrible despite having stronger hardware then the 3DS.

          • ForeVision

            I don’t know what the reason behind those decisions is other than cashing in on smartphone users.

  • awng781

    Let’s hope this 20 year-old conflict were or can be put aside for the benefit of both companies and the consumers.

    • Jon Turner

      Indeed. That was a betrayal that I found very shocking back then, and I’ve been rooting for both Square and Nintendo to put aside their differences ever since. I hope this time is the charm.

  • Lol, interesting how stories differed with the last three. Also funny that Kawai wasn’t in that meeting, but seems to have an opinion on how it went, lol. Then again, he also way propped up 7’s graphics. Which, sure, the backgrounds were very nice. . . but not the rest, lol. Okay, Kawai. It wasn’t even until the end of the PS1’s life and the last PS FF that the games started to look good on the PS1. (Of course, my baby, IX.)

    I can believe Nintendo was pissed and was probably hostile, but Square also has some responsibility there. They made their decision, and probably didn’t want to give Nintendo much after that. Which is fair, because they wanted to do what they wanted and would also make them the most money. But even then. . . business is business, going both ways.

    At the same time, Square has only gotten worse. Enix may not be as bad, but Square is a mess, and Nintendo is way lenient with them. Square mistreated Bravely Second after Default’s success, put Explorers on the 3DS. . . the DS gen was great, but this gen has been very messy. But everything with Square is messy anymore, hence I laugh at their state of affairs. They can’t even be honest about XV’s performance.

  • Wanderlei

    Square got infected with Sony’s toxic corporate culture and its why they are a dead shell of what they use to be.

  • Q Mulative

    Squaresoft leaving Nintendo was the worst mistake Squaresoft could have made. Square had lost so much money investing in Sony-FMVs that their only competitor Enix bought them out, and together they continued to lose money while entire teams would leave Square Enix to join Nintendo as second party studios or startup as indies, including Final Fantasy’s creators and the entire XenoSeries- and Seiken Densetsu development teams.

    Nintendo may have had an arrogant attitude, but they were right, and it’s about time SquareEnix realized that, before they become “SquareEnix, a subsidiary of Cup Noodle”.