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Sakurai on the clone characters in Smash Bros. Wii U/3DS

Posted on October 9, 2014 by (@NE_Brian) in 3DS, News, Wii U | 0 Likes

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Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS contain a few “clone characters” like previous entries in the series. In his latest Famitsu column, director Masahiro Sakurai explains how they were decided.

Sakurai started out with the following:

There are 3 fighters [Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doctor Mario] that are alternate models (clones) in the game. Each was originally a color variation, but during development, they were given balanced characteristics. Since their functionality had differences, forms were separated from each other. However, it was vital that this didn’t increase the required man-hours. Some relative tuning was sufficient as it wasn’t necessary to create balancing from scratch.

Sakurai goes on to say that Lucina and Marth have different sword properties. While Dark Pit and Pit are the same, making Dark Pit a separate character was required in order to give him “his unique arm and Final Smash”. And as far as Dr. Mario is concerned, the team felt “old Dr. Mario fans would not agree to Dr. Mario being the same as Mario, so we went on to give him a unique customizable set.”

Sakurai next draws an interesting – if not a bit strange – analogy between eating out at restaurants and the clone characters in Smash Bros.:

This is like a free dessert after a luxurious meal that was prepared free of charge. In a restaurant with this type of service, I don’t think there’s anybody who would say, “Change this to a meat dish!!”

Yet, I’m told [to do that] about Smash Bros. But, I guess since a lot of them are children, it cannot be helped.

Lastly, Sakurai ends his response with the following:

Could you please leave it to me to select [characters] with man-hours and costs in mind? However you look at it, the game is a great bargain buy as a result.

Sakurai also discussed how characters are chosen for Smash Bros. in his Famitsu column. You can check out his comments here.

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  • Adrian Brown

    I understand that, but after seeing HW’s Ganondorf it’s hard to look at him in Smash.

    • MusubiKazesaru

      yeah it’s pretty sad how no changes were made, still no long range magic or sword attacks beyond customs

      • Talenua Dharaphop

        ganondorf is easier to use than he was in brawl, and his aerial seem to be changed too

        • MusubiKazesaru

          everyone got minor adjustments for the game

          • HarakiriKami

            They got revamped completely.

            All their attackes execute and feel different now.

          • John H Player

            ganondorf still feels like a waste of space being a captain punch clone. also, he plays like the old one completely, looks the same, feels the same, smashes the same ect. wtf has sakurai been doing since brawl? making a blue shell item? seems like that was it. F him and this game! No sword, No ganon. and pikachu plays like a chump now

    • meep

      Haha, I thought the same thing when I first played Ganondorf in Hyrule Warriors. Such well thought out movements between his dark magic and his sword skills… and then you see the not so amazing Ganondorf in Smash4.

    • Jota Rivera

      ganon will never be changed, he’s the only character sakurai plays

      • John H Player

        sakurai shouldn’t play this game then

        • magicbologna

          ROFL

          that comment is either hilarious

          or im high

          or both

          ok, its both

          • John H Player

            thank you for the Rolf. hittin the blunt. but yea. wow this game… bowser rules tho in 4 player and will murder in the 8 player. but makes my 1v1 worthless with falcos running a muk…

            my beef with this game is the ranking system now. lol i don’t want to know my 1 play score is higher than 2 million other people, I want to know what my rank is in FFA and 1v1 like a boss should~ PSAS killed it with the belt system and smash failed with the zero connectivity. can’t play with friends in teams for fun 2v2 rated games. lol there are no rated anything anyways. unless you want to look at it all by yourself and that type of action gets your rocks off. which is the exact type of person that sakurai is. weak weak weak sauce. had more fun caking noobs with sackbio. had we been able to bring custom play sets to online then this game would have been dope… but no real reason for customs unless you are a child with friends with the game (very limited) and no real ranking system all in the name of the butt hurters… weak game. lol can’t wait to spend more money on Nintendo to fail me some more.

          • John H Player

            thank you for the Rolf. hittin the blunt. but yea. wow this game… bowser rules tho in 4 player and will murder in the 8 player. but makes my 1v1 worthless with falcos running a muk…

            my beef with this game is the ranking system now. lol i don’t want to know my 1 play score is higher than 2 million other people, I want to know what my rank is in FFA and 1v1 like a boss should~ PSAS killed it with the belt system and smash failed with the zero connectivity. can’t play with friends in teams for fun 2v2 rated games. lol there are no rated anything anyways. unless you want to look at it all by yourself and that type of action gets your rocks off. which is the exact type of person that sakurai is. weak weak weak sauce. had more fun caking noobs with sackbio. had we been able to bring custom play sets to online then this game would have been dope… but no real reason for customs unless you are a child with friends with the game (very limited) and no real ranking system all in the name of the butt hurters… weak game. lol can’t wait to spend more money on Nintendo to fail me some more.

          • Joe Falon

            Have YOU ever made a game?

          • magicbologna

            what a great argument.

          • Joe Falon

            To which you don’t have an answer….

          • John H Player

            no, but i played a better one in PSAS. and as a die hard smash fan… that is upsetting to say the least. where is our ranks. where is our team options? like besides the joy of playin smash… what is the point of this game? lol friends come over and it is a 2 second lag with linked systems and no chance to play together online. worthless. 1 player smash is a waste of time… we are not all Japanese.

            and Ganon is a HORRRIBLE HORRRRIBLE character. and considering how awesome he could have been, with 30 plus years to draw on, it is sad this guy is still in control of this game. But like all nintendumb it is the same lack luster package that has been happening since game cube. That’s from a die hard Nintendo fan. (and pokemon should have morphed into a MMPO game by now)

          • MagcargoMan

            PSAS is a joke. Half-A**ed story and rival cutscenes, lame unlockables (Backgrounds? Yay…), lying about third party characters being chosen to celebrate Playstation history when instead they were added to advertise upcoming games, and Superbot being spineless and doubling-over when they clearly broke their “One character per franchise” rule because Sucker Punch were being greedy.

            Such a good game, in fact it was so good it made Superbot get fired by Sony, and the new team that replaced them made about three balance patches and then abandoned it. I can really feel the love it received from it’s creators. Must be such a great game when it used hype to disguise how mediocre it truly is.

            Don’t act like PSAS has no Ganondorf-tier bad characters. Sir Dan and Jak have been sitting at the bottom the entire game and not even the balance patches helped them.

            Enjoy your pale, lackluster imitation of a better game.

          • John H Player

            LOL you played for a story mode and cutscenes???? LOL it’s about rank.

          • MagcargoMan

            Except I didn’t. Learn to read.

          • John H Player

            lol sounds like you played the game too. sir dan is a better character than ganondorf all day. jak is too. cheers

          • MagcargoMan

            You can’t compare how two characters from different games with different mechanics work. Try again.

          • John H Player

            global smash power ranking is a fail.

          • Guest

            at least it is better than the lame leaderboards other games have where only the 10 f*gs that are included in it care about it, meanwhile all the other players around the world don’t give a sh*t and don’t even check it or know who those 10 f*gs are, with GSP you can at least compare yours with your friends, with leaderboards only 10 f*gs are part of it and it ends up being a useless addition to the game and a worthless use of the online functionality which could be used for something much more productive that could be enjoyed by more players

          • John H Player

            lol anyone above 1000 would care. for each character…

          • John H Player

            lol what else are they using online for???????????? there is zero online options. for glory is special ed no stages and for fun is special ed with items…. there is zero options online. and ranking boards have 1000s of slots… people are happy to break a 1000 any day. its hard. and it makes people happy. lol sorry you never got a high score before. its dope

          • John H Player

            lawl, just reread this, so what is the functions of online in smash for the 3ds? oh wait, nothing. glad they didn’t waste their space on rankings. too bad they seemed to forget to do ANYTHING else

          • MagcargoMan

            And that matters why? Do you only care for a game if it has some arbitrary ranking list? It’s clear you’d have millions of people higher than you on the leader board, so clearly you want something that’ll make you look worse?

          • John H Player

            lol my global is 5 million below me… it means nothing.

          • MagcargoMan

            You say it means nothing, yet you criticise the game for not having it.

          • John H Player

            yea, it means nothing to have a GSP ranking, it is dumb. i will criticize the game for not having a ranking system a skill leveling, a online matchmaking options and over all, everything that people bit@#ed about PSAS being, SSB4 for the 3DS was exactly the same. minus rankings and player interaction of course… PSAS had better interaction. lol the fact you can’t voice over while playing is a laughing stock of a let down. Talking trash while playing smash makes the game… but what ever, you sound like a 12 year old troll so i could give 2 s@#ts less. get online and I’ll smash your face in smash any day of the week, if not, stay offline and talk trash about what you obviously have no idea about.

          • MagcargoMan

            “but what ever, you sound like a 12 year old troll so i could give 2 s@#ts less. get online and I’ll smash your face in smash any day of the week”

            Above: Irony

          • John H Player

            lol it is clear i would not have millions of people higher than me. if you play online “for glory” you have lost to my bowser. jp is my player tag and i am on daily. my win % has stayed at 85 plus since starting the game… i want to know how i stacked up in the world… been wanting to know that since 1999 and yet still i wait.

          • MagcargoMan

            Well I haven’t played online Smash 4 yet, so I haven’t lost to you or anyone else for that matter.

          • John H Player

            then you have no room to comment on how the online experience is beyond s@#t. and it lags between system to system as well, so if you played with those friends of yours, you would have felt the lag.

          • MagcargoMan

            Except this wasn’t even about the lag. You said if I play online that I’ve probably lost to your Bowser. I said I haven’t played on line. Learn to read what you are even talking about.

          • John H Player

            did you want Ganondorf to have his sword, yes or no?

          • Guest

            GOD PLEASE NO!! there are already way too many sword users in the game, I’d rather have a Ganondorf with a more wizard-like moveset, like shooting magic balls and floating by holding the jump button like Peach, also he could have a move where he punches the floor and creates a shockwave or something, all moves of him taken from OoT, he could keep some moves like the flame choke because that one looks pretty bad*ss and fits him well.

          • John H Player

            lol so you are ok with him pulling a sword out of his bu++ and shoving it right back up there after he laughs… nice

            he could have been a very slow powerful link clone, magic purple flame bombs that get bigger, a heavy spinning sword, some range magic attack that pulls people in or pushes them out and his lunge grab. throw in some irk like regular attacks an you have a better ganondorf. either way… ganon pulls a sword out of his @s$… that is dumb

          • Guest

            A link clone ? no, just no, I’d rather see him shooting his magic energy balls from OoT than seeing him use magic purple flame bombs.
            And I do get the reference of that taunt, he looks at the sword like a ”f*ck you sages”, I have no problem with it, I’m just neutral it could be replaced or left there in the game, I don’t care about it tbh.

          • John H Player

            respect that. our idea for the magic energy balls and or magic bombs are on the same page tho… either way, I wanted something that felt better than what we got. LOVE the game lol, play it daily, just let down it is not competitive and has no 2v2 options ( murdering for 100s of games with someone on your skill level in 2v2 is fun… getting random people to play ffa 2v2 is not…as fun.

          • MagcargoMan

            Yes.

          • John H Player

            well it is up his a$s. lol way to agree with me all while b@#$hing at me in your above posts. smash ratings would have been awesome. team options would have been awesome. being able to play with your friends in 2v2 online would have been awesome. there are a lot of easy basic normal things that have been staples of games for 10 plus years that have never made it in to a smash game and for the life of me i can’t understand why they are not… but then again, i wouldn’t have put a sword up ganons @s$ so i truly can’t say I know the mind of the great creator.

          • John H Player

            lol how many marths and marios do you need to satisfy “one character per model” being broken, at least with Cole you are told it is the same f@#kin person… with this your left to guess if your a man or woman like some transgender freak… which is so Japan.. lol outlaw all gays and then gender swap your man-girl characters… either way, I rage all the time on smash now that it is out, it is just weak to not have rankings and team options or hosting options, or really any options with your custom settings. it is a unfinished game… JUSt like Brawl was.

          • TheWeasel

            Excuse me, I do not mean to be rude, but it would seem that not a single person here cares for your opinion. You, like everyone else here, are free to express your opinion as you see fit, of course. But, you appear to be wasting not only your own time, but the time of others here, as your comments are having no effect on anyone, if that was indeed their purpose. Perhaps these comments would do more good on a Sony focused site, or perhaps even a PSAS focused site, if such a thing exists. So I would advise you to not waste any more of your valuable time here, but rather go to a site where others would share your opinion as well, and I am positive you will have a much better and productive time commenting and the like. Thank you very much.

          • John H Player

            seems plenty of people feel let down by the game. lol it is smash bros, it is not going to be a bad game, unless you count the lowing down of brawl as well, special…. either way, it isa great game, it is just broken in too many places to NOT voice these things and that is what people are doing, on here, on reddit, all over the place, we are asking Nintendo to remove that crazy bug collecting freak and put someone on that will make a better game. sure he broke his hand trying to make a great game, he left out 2v2, any form of rankings, any connectivity with people you meet online, and the lack of a second online mode with the customs makes it feel worthless to even make one…and Ganondorf is absolutely horrible, we already have captain falcon, there was no need to leave him a slower more special ed version. could have done so so so much with him. lol just make him into some clone of marth lol!!! a fat toon ganon with marth sword action would have been epic compared to AAaaaaaaar punch. aaaaaarrr kick. and i hate marth clone action. Those are things Sakucry and Nintendo need to be told… apparently over and over again.

            Mallow would have been a better character choice than dark pit.

          • Guest

            Mallow ? that character nobody cares or gives a f*ck about and isn’t even fully owned by nintendo ?

            Fat toon ganon ? no, toon link is enough cel-shaded zelda representation and fat toon ganon would be meh because his design isn’t that cool

            bug collecting freak ? sorry but Villager deserves the spot, animal crossing is too big to not have any rep in smash, plus he’s really original and adds something fresh to the game unlike a sword wielding toon ganon

            You have your own opinion, but just because it’s YOUR opinion it doesn’t mean it’s the right one, your taste is wrong for this game, the fact that you want villager taken out in favor of a fat toon ganondorf is proof enough of that.

          • John H Player

            lol bug collector was referring to sukurai or any nerdy Japanese guy …. even tho it was a comment directed at the creator of pokemon in truth not sakurai.

            villager is whatever. i don’t care if he was in or not. ganondorf is a bad character. and shocked you even know who mallow is. you young guns now a days.

          • Guest

            I grew up in the NES era, my first game was Super Mario Bros., I even got some Game & Watches around that time, I later got a Gameboy and then a SNES when it came out and I eventually played Super Mario RPG when it was released to help me calm down my hype for the N64, I wouldn’t exactly call myself a young gun.

          • you sound like exactly the kind of person that plays with no items, Fox only, on Final Destination. Melee only, casualfag.

          • John H Player

            lawl. no. just for glory. have not even played on all the horrible 3ds stages yet and personally don’t see myself wasting the time to do it…. pick fox if you want to. My Bowser kills Fox at around 30 damage EVERYtime and melee is on a broken system with no one in the world still having wavebirds (oh im sure some of you lames still have them) I picked up brawl and yes it felt like it was unfinished and slowed down for special ed children. that an the nunchuck was a full second of lag in any real fight with a good player……and yea, items on the 2ds is much, so not until i drop the grand upgrading to a 8 stick wii U will I be playing with items. so your ears must not work very well with your eyes, because no, never use Fox( never did either) Final D is the ranked stage (oh how i wish for glory was truly ranked not just a personal hand job for those who check their stats) so it is what I play on and melee is not something i have seen in 10 years at the least. oh and my woman is so Hot there is no way in hello kitty that I am a casualfag. lol nice profile pic too, don’t wack too hard to her nuddies online. you’ll get that burn again. cheers lame

          • you must troll harder, Pit.

          • John H Player

            lol you care too much to have said either of those comments to not be a causlafag pit user. I have not kept up with the community to use such insults as you apparently have. good job at life brohan. Either way post your code and you can 1v1 my bowser anyday. still at over 95% in 1v1 so come play.

          • you do not have enough badges to troll me.

            your Bowser = my punchbag. I’ll spare you the trouble.
            3265-5292-0994

          • John H Player

            oh you want to battle battle me? bring your legendary hacked mons too you pimple faced child. time to eat some noobs. soon as work is over tho. so check back around 4 or 5 today. thank you for taking the time out of your day to suk me off.

          • you do not have enough badges to troll me.
            your Bowser = my punchbag. I’ll spare you the agony, and spare myself the trouble of sharing the numbers 3265-5292-0994.

          • your bowser = my punchbag.
            git good scrub.

          • John H Player

            452786321820. your added so we should have our match sometime tonight unless you Poon out. lol badges. you are going to get served. smash an pokemon. either or or both. and we can post them online for the kicks.

          • MagcargoMan

            Superbot actually said they’d only have one character per franchise, Sakurai didn’t, so your comparison is fail.

            Brawl unfinished? Toplel. Yeah a game with over 35 charcaters, 40 stages, classic, all-star mode, tourney mode, a full-on adventure mode that actually bothered to animate it’s cutscenes (whereas PSAS has incredibly lame still shots for it’s opening and ending in the Arcade Mode), large music selection, boss rush, homerun contest, target tests, photos and replays vault, and over a 1000 collectibles between it’s trophies and stickers, is totally unfinished…

            But there’s no point in arguing with you. It’s clear from your post you’re not gonna make an intelligent argument. Have fun with your half-a**ed game.

          • John H Player

            there was no online ranking or online community… and there has been the internet since 1996… there was and is no excuse for the lack of care for competitive online play. so unless you feel like beating up your friends who come over again and again and again… it feels lack luster. it is very easy to make a ranking system for online play… 90% of games that came out past 1995 have a ranking system… smash does not nor seems to be planning on it. yay for showing up to tourneys outside of my house. lol like that would ever happen. Don’t play without a blunt burning. smoking smash (one hand hits while one moves and then pass to get your attacks back, is the only way to play smash… if you disagree and pause to pass the blunt, you are a noob and will be kicked out of rotation. ) is the only way to beat people and call it amazing. smoke in the eye no ashing beat downs are more epic than a two hit bowser dunk gg in 1v1, which is epic in and of its self. cheers

          • MagcargoMan

            ” so unless you feel like beating up your friends who come over again and again and again.”

            Some of us have friends in real life instead of spending time with internet randoms you know?

            “Don’t play without a blunt burning. smoking smash (one hand hits while one moves and then pass to get your attacks back, is the only way to play smash… if you disagree and pause to pass the blunt, you are a noob and will be kicked out of rotation. ) is the only way to beat people and call it amazing. smoke in the eye no ashing beat downs are more epic than a two hit bowser dunk gg in 1v1, which is epic in and of its self. cheers”

            You’re an idiot.

          • John H Player

            “some of us have real friends” lol i got three extra systems and two copies of the game so my friends can play it with me… since most 29 year olds do not have a gameboy last i checked. one, you need 4 copies of the game for 4 people to play, which is DUMBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB. two it lags with 1v1v1 in a ffa with linked systems. that is DUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMB. and three smoking smash is epic. to disagree is dumb. you are a pauser 🙂

          • MagcargoMan

            You don’t play Smash on a Gameboy. Try again.

          • John H Player

            yes you do, it is a gameboy 2 ds…. last i checked. still says gameboy on it.

          • John H Player

            it does not say, gameboy, on it, but for all intents and purposes, the 2ds and 3ds are apart of the gameboy line. so yes, you can play smash on a gameboy…

          • John H Player

            hold on i’ll second check really quick… maybe i can find a link to the website or something… I swear they are calling it a gameboy… idk. i’ll get back to you when I know more sir!

          • John H Player

            2ds and 3ds are part of the gameboy family… why be a tool over such facts?

          • MagcargoMan

            No there part of the DS family. Why be a tool about you being wrong?

          • John H Player

            lol looked it up… anyone my age refers to it as a fuking gameboy. personally I have zero fuking care if it is a DS or a gameboy. it is a fuking gameboy that got fuked by a ipad3 thus we have the weakest handheld in the world. PS4 is playing on a god damn cell phone attached to a wireless controller, and we are stuck with N64 graphics???????? my bad… the first line of gamecube games is more like the new 3ds games. either way. it isa fuking gameboy for all intents and purposes. google gameboy 3ds/2ds and every sight that is selling a gameboy 3ds will have it listed as a gameboy 3ds. they know we refer to it as such and personally from someone who had not owned a sh!tty gameboy since 1996… this is still a gameboy, maybe upgraded sure, but it is still a gameboy. you two year old Bitc^

          • MagcargoMan

            “anyone my age refers to it as a fuking gameboy. ”

            So you’re middle-aged or older? Because those are the only people hwo call DS/3DS “Gameboys”.

            “and we are stuck with N64 graphics????????”

            You seriously need an eye-test if you think 3DS is N64-level in terms of graphical capabilities.

            “you two year old Bitc^”

            Says the guy who writes like a two year old…

          • John H Player

            lol you need those “real life friends” to be able to beat them over and over and over again… you seemed to miss that point there 😉 just sayin

          • MagcargoMan

            Just because you need online to make up for your lack of real life friends doesn’t mean we all do.

          • John H Player

            one, weak pokemon name, two, megaman would never want to take your powers so, even weaker megaman name. third, you are online, making comments on a game that you have and say that you play… a lot…but have never pressed right once and played online? and how would you even know what a GSP ranking was if you had never played online… that and just having the system connected to online would show you that score… soooooooooo all that said, you are nothing more than a troll faced noob who has nothing to add. you are as worthless as ganons gooch sword. shove it

          • MagcargoMan

            “one, weak pokemon name, two, megaman would never want to take your powers so, even weaker megaman name. ”

            One: You’re an imbecile

            Two: You’re arguments are completely childish and irrelevant

            Three: Putting “Man” in a user name doesn’t mean it’s something to do with Mega Man

            “third, you are online, making comments on a game that you have and say that you play… a lot…but have never pressed right once and played online?”

            Playing against a bunch of randoms is boring and might as well be CPUs.

            “you are nothing more than a troll faced noob who has nothing to add.”

            This sentence can be used to describe every post you have made on this page.

          • John H Player

            lol 1 and 2… are spot on. you are named after a megaman inducing pile of lava snot. it is a joke in and of itself. 3… you should have put child then. it feels like a mega man name… like it has since 1990.

            now for the internet parts. cpus are not even a challenge. if it takes more than 8 seconds for you to have killed a cpu you are not playing the game right. people online crush compared to cpus, and they don’t even have to be that great. and lastly, YES YOU ARE POSTING ONLINE YET NEVER CLICKED THE OONLINE option once? yea right, you sir are a [email protected] lying sa& of s#$t and can eat my BBC for all i care you fukin 3 year old bit3H

          • MagcargoMan

            “lol 1 and 2… are spot on. you are named after a megaman inducing pile of lava snot. ”

            Except there aren’t. Wow, a username, so relevant to an argument. Except you know, it isn’t: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

            And you are objectively wrong. My username has nothing to do with Mega Man.

            ” if it takes more than 8 seconds for you to have killed a cpu you are not playing the game right. ”

            You’re full of crap, you know that? Oh wait, you probably fight level 2 CPUs.

            “and lastly, YES YOU ARE POSTING ONLINE YET NEVER CLICKED THE OONLINE option once?”

            So apparently, because I can post on a comment section apparently that means I have to fight a bunch of randoms who I won’t get the satisfaction of seeing their reactions when they lose? You’re dense.

            “yea right, you sir are a [email protected] lying sa& of s#$t and can eat my BBC for all i care you fukin 3 year old bit3H”

            Your comments are cancer. You are either a 12 year old or a troll, and don’t bother responding because I’m not gonna respond to your childish BS anymore, unless you decide to grow a brain and say something even remotely intelligent.

          • John H Player

            your a snot rag pokemon who wishes he was in a megaman game… i get it. its ok. now go play with your samus toy… its got to blasters for you hole

          • John H Player

            and you are a child who can’t even roll a joint. and who only plays smash in home room with his other group of friendless losers. you twanker

          • MagcargoMan

            The only child here is you. Between your bad grammar/lack of formatting, random tangents and flawed logic, and acting so edgy for smoking, it’s clear you’re a big try-hard.

            Also, it’s hilariously fail how you call someone who actually can play with friends and not internet randoms friendless. Go home troll.

          • John H Player

            you have understood each and every single word that has come out of my god damn fingers you twingy @$$ [email protected] blogging on a weak website that will be shut down in the next few years as nindendumb becomes a cell phone app does not call for me to take the time and grammer check…. considering EACH and every post I have made was percise and made absolute sense. You sir are a weak little Bit(H with little to no room to talk about ANYTHING!

            playing smash with friends lags like hell (which is why i really do not believe a word you are saying…. every report on reddit i have seen says playing connected to friends locally lags the game more so than most online matches… but again yay to all your friends coming over right???) playing smash online lags pretty noticeable, ganon still has a sword up his @SS, there is still no ranking system (i see they have at least online hosting servers which is a step in the right direction on the Wii U) , All those are my topics of interest. yet you seem to have gotten lost in calling me names and crying about how ranking systems are worthless. you sir are worthless. you sir have never played the game the way it was supposed to be played and have decided to take the time out of your day to assault people who have… great life you there sir. Get online or stay playing a sub par game off line, cheers you twank.

          • xXDerpyBroXx

            (This is directed to both of you, not to just one person)

            You know, online, people can say whatever they want. They’re behind a computer screen, right? Nobody can hurt them. Nobody can command them to do things.

            Well, guess what.
            Nobody has time for this. Nobody WANTS to have to scroll through all of this stupid [email protected], made by stupid people, utterly stuck trying to act like fools. I read through this entire reply chain. Or, at least tried to. I stopped midway because you both sounded like foolish, stressed 7 year olds that borrowed their mom’s computer.

            This is how all arguments turn out, right?
            It goes from the actual argument..
            Then to the irrelevant insults that have no reason to be said..
            Then everybody just struggles to make good (terrible) comebacks against each other.

            Do yourselves a favor and don’t embarrass yourselves again.

          • John H Player

            lawl… researching marijuana related news and the i get pulled back into the smash board…. awesome. you make this weed all the better.

          • John H Player

            lawl this is 8 months back…

            bro the game has changed. they are doing what we told them to do because WE the people complained. ill lawl to the bank when Geno is a Ganon clone but with flame projectiles and his wand being explosive with flinching power… idk. regardless that wouldn’t surprise me since the guy is doing all this awesome stuff BECAUSE the internet was shocked it was broken.
            guy fixed the lag problems
            guy continues to provide updates
            guy gave us DLC
            the guy gave us DLC! it was said to never be done. he changed his mind. why? because of the internet.

            granted he didn’t add ranked but he added ryu and promised more. only so many more can happen in this one game but the new game is coming sooner than later for the next gen an it will be boss. huge online commed up ranked and everything. even a speed boosting blaziken calling it now. that said…

            ganon still has a sword in his A

            and that guy above never accepted my challenge. but thanks for bringing me back here. got to word vomit my nintendo for a second. now back to what I was doing, researching marjuana

          • John H Player

            when i said that it was TRUE… thank you Sakurai for finishing and continuing to polish your game, our favorite game. Cheers.

      • Andrew Duffin

        Add Black Shadow, give him Ganondorf’s current moveset, change Ganondorf to better represent his character, problem solved

        • magicbologna

          thats a GREAT idea. except that im a huge nintendo fan and I had to look up who that was. but still a great idea, as would be making a new fzero some decade..

          • Guest

            well, guess I’m a much bigger nintendo fan because I know all the racers in F-Zero X, GX is the one that gives me trouble with Princia Ramode, Phoenix, Deathborn and all those new characters they added, it has a really big roster, in X I believe there was only 30 racers.
            Anyways, Andrew’s idea is a nice idea that a lot of people have already stated, including me as well, the problem for me lies in that I don’t know how I would feel if suddenly they added a character with ganon’s moveset and gave ganon a new one, could be weird but I suppose we could get used to it, I’d love to see ganondorf with a more wizard-like moveset, shooting magic balls, holding the jump button to float, punching the floor to create a shockwave, keep the bad *ss flame choke, keep the really strong punch with ”darkness waves” or whatever they were called by Navi in OoT, I’d love to see a Ganondorf with a moveset based on his OoT appearance.
            And I absolutely hate that ganon with sword idea since we already have too many sword users and it would also hinder the possibilities of making it in for other sword users that deserve to be playable like Zael from Last Story (that game deserves the spot in smash so much) and maybe a Golden Sun rep, and while I’m at it this game should have a Glory of Heracles assist trophy, I’d like them to add Leucothea and Hercules.

    • TalesOfBS

      I don’t have a problem with extra clones, but i do have a problem with it when highly wanted characters like Lucina and Ganon turn into simple clones and stuff like Dark Pit and DR. Mario waste slots that could be used by other highly wanted characters like, Mewtwo.

      • Guest

        when will people understand the clones in this game do not waste slots… they probably didn’t have the time and budget to make mewtwo for this game, DLC is still an option tho, and we already know there are more characters and stages coming because of the code and the images found in Smash 3DS, so let’s just wait to see what the future has in store.

      • Guest

        That being said, since Sakurai wanted to add “desert toppings” in what we see as clone characters… why didn’t he just make them alternate colors? Koopa Kids were great and all, as was the addition of Alph (though my older brother complains that they should’ve added Alph, Charlie and Brittany instead of multi-colored Alph…). I sincerely hate Dark Pit, and AT LEAST Dr. Mario’s moveset is just the slightest bit different instead of horribly handicapped or boosted power wise. :C
        Also, Sonic’s colors are terribly made, the fact that they didn’t include shiny versions of the Pokemon is SAD.

        But really, for the clones, I would have liked it for them to include Lucus again, maybe instead of Dark Pit, (DARK LINK doesn’t have his own player slot!!!), or maybe Daisy, since I’ve heard that people want her as a separate character instead of color…

        Or if you really wanna get down to the nit and gritty, make a new Metroid or FZero slot for extra clones. Like the above mentioned Black Bull or someone from Metroid Prime Hunters. …that game had a lot on there I’m surprised Nintendo pretends that the only Metroid games in existence now are the first several ones and OTHER M OF ALL GAMES.

  • Maxo

    “This is like a free dessert after a luxurious meal that
    was prepared free of charge. In a restaurant with this type of service, I
    don’t think there’s anybody who would say, “Change this to a meat
    dish!!”

    Yet, I’m told [to do that] about Smash Bros. But, I guess since a lot of them are children, it cannot be helped.”

    daaaaaamn son

    • Operative

      While I agree with his sentiment that whiners are annoying, he can’t make that analogy. This game was not provided to us free of charge. Although many disagree, some people might feel their $40 were wasted with this game, and I guess from that point of view I can understand some complaining.

      • Gold_Ultima

        No it still works. You paid for the meal but you got something extra for free. You paid for the basic roster, but he gave you 3 extra characters that wouldn’t have been in there otherwise.

        • Kalis Konig

          They would have been in…as costumes. 🙂

        • Christopher Lewis

          It doesn’t work because when people buy the game they are taking into consideration all the characters. If the roster isn’t much greater than a previous installment someone might want to stick to one of the older games. I do like the 3DS game a lot, but I don’t think his choice of characters should be free from criticism.

          • JoshuaMariguez197

            The roster is nearly double that of Brawl with the same number of clones so your point is invalid.

          • Budgiecat

            And One Piece 3DS fighter has double, so what

          • Bugdiecat

            you’re invalid

          • JoshuaMariguez197

            My 28 upvotes say you’re an idiot..

          • Gold_Ultima

            You don’t seem to understand how this works… You had a choice. Get these three additions, or have three less characters on the roster. They were able to shoehorn in 3 extras because they didn’t need to make new models or movesets so it didn’t increase development time. It’s not like he picked them over other characters. He just managed to slip in 3 extras because he figured out a way to do it with the resources and time left in development. It’s not like if they took these characters out you would get Ridley or something. These took almost no extra time to make. Adding Ridley would have added at least one extra man year worth of labour.

          • Budgiecat

            One year?

            Stop the brown nosing BS please lmao

          • Bugdiecat

            what?

          • Budgiecat

            SHAAAAAAADAP CLONE

          • Bugdiecat

            what?

          • MagcargoMan

            I’d rather quality over quantity if the only thing I miss out on with three less characters is pointless clones.

          • Tylos

            “pointless” I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

            They do have a point, they are fanservice. Dark Pit was highly requested in Japan, Lucina is a fan favorite FE character many hoped would get in, and Dr. Mario is in as there are those who like him and he is a way through which Mario’s Melee moveset can be made readily available to those who preferred his moveset over the new one.

          • MagcargoMan

            Dark Pit only got in because of Sakurai’s bias for Uprising, Lucina contradicts Sakurai’s reasoning for why Chrom couldn’t be in (and before you say anything, I HATE Chrom and I’m glad he’s not in, but that doesn’t change the fact that Lucina contradicts his reasoning), and Dr Mario is Sakurai’s lazy excuse to not fix Mario.

            Their not fanservice, they are padding? Most people would have easily been satisfied with alternate costumes. Look how many people are happy about the Koopalings being alts.

          • Velen (Not WoW)

            Pure conjecture. That’s what constitutes the entirety of your first paragraph.

          • MagcargoMan

            Second time you’ve used that. Is that your cute buzzword?

          • kthanxyousuck

            Then people shouldn’t purchase without the full roster being known. That’s called “buyer beware”.

          • MidianGTX

            They they should do their research on games before they buy them.

          • Guest

            To be quite honest, if Sakurai thinks that anything done in the gaming world should be free from criticism, it’s a laughable thought. In order to gain or maintain fans, you gotta open up and listen to the fanbase!

            And if that requires the work of more manpower to provide, then so be it. Otherwise, Nintendo would be better off looking for a successor to the Smash series. Fans don’t want what Sakura thinks they should want; they want what they are pestering him for. Us “children”, hehe. It’s a thankless job, I’d think.

            (Besides, what restaurant gives you free desert? Unless it’s either small or gross. Which, if you really have to use the analogy here, we got the gross package.)

        • Budgiecat

          they were gonna be there otherwise..as color palettes.

          Now, they take away slots from actual unique characters.

          And no one knew what the roster or roster size was gonna be, so there was no understood “basic roster”

          damn fanboys

          • Gold_Ultima

            First, do you understand the difference between a year and a man year? One is a measure of time, one is a measure of combined labour time between multiple people. It’s the difference between 1 man working for 10 hours and 10 men working for 1 hour. It would have taken them one man year in order to create and balance the character against all the other characters.

            Second, they didn’t take away from development time of other unique characters. He planned out the roster before development even started. With the clones he had a small amount of redundant labour that he could just turn into 3 more characters with minor tweaks.

          • Budgiecat

            ah shut up what are you his personal assistant or something?

          • MadCrain

            So you’re the child Sakurai spoke of, go play with your toys 🙂

          • Budgiecat

            I have the coolest toys and you’re not invited over so nyaa!

          • Bugdiecat

            He has a lot of vibrating toys, that’s why you’re not invited.

          • Bugdiecat

            yeah, shut up.

          • Guest

            This being said, I believe it was a poor choice. He could have used this time to improve on stages or something a bit more *productive*, and left these extra characters to extend color palettes or something. But this is just the opinion of a fan.

            A non-child fan, I mean.

        • I was going to buy the game and a Wii U if the roster came through. It didn’t, and the clones are largely reasons why. I have no interest in Sakurai’s course and it is exactly because I’m not a child. My money is what I make from hard work, and I only plan to use it on things I truly want.

          • Aura Shadow

            Let’s say Sakurai could see the future and saw that this was going to happen. He would simply take out the clones. But that’s it. The game would be exactly the same only with 3 less characters. No unique character could have been made with the little resources they used to make the 3 clones. As a result the clones literally take away NOTHING from the game. If you’re disappointed in the roster I understand that, but the clones aren’t even a viable reason to be disappointed since they only add to the game.

          • Budgiecat

            they take away the slot of characters he knows people were asking for

          • Gold_Ultima

            No they don’t. Learn to read.

          • Budgiecat

            Yes they do. Learn not eat the PR BS

          • Bugdiecat

            I can’t read.

          • MagcargoMan

            They add nothing. I don’t care if we would have had three less characters, I’d much rather three cool alts instead of three lame clones.

          • Guest

            They should have stayed color alts, and maybe he could have used the time that he had left over for 3 clones to add maybe either one character previously removed.

        • MagcargoMan

          No, it’s like paying for a soup, and when you get the soup you find hairs in it, and then the apoligists of the soup’s maker defend him and tell you “You should be grateful for the extra hairs because you got them for free”.

          • Velen (Not WoW)

            So based on your own analogy, these 3 hairs ruined your perfect soup and is why you rage against everyone who decides to have a level head and see things both ways instead bashing Sakurai?

          • MagcargoMan

            “So based on your own analogy, these 3 hairs ruined your perfect soup”

            >Implying you wouldn’t be unhappy with finding human hairs in your food at a restaurant…

            “why you rage against everyone who decides to have a level head and see things both ways instead bashing Sakurai?”

            Blind fanboyism is not level-headed.

          • NameHere

            I like to use random character select sometimes. I don’t like having twice the chance to pick a character because of clones.

          • Aura Shadow

            THIS! This is the only legitimate argument that has been on this whole thing. That is totally understandable and makes a good point!

          • MagcargoMan

            Love how you make a fallacious claim and then run away when someone calls you out on it instead of responding.

            You realise the hypocrisy of what your saying, right? “why you rage against everyone who decides to have a level head and see things both ways instead bashing Sakurai?” More like how apologists who DON’T see things both ways dog-pile everyone who does criticise Sakurai, like this comments section?

          • Guest

            When taking this into consideration, not everyone is raging or bashing Sakurai. Critiquing his decision to add in the three hairs/characters is a way to express our opinions.

            It was through opinions that he had learned that it was “in the fans’ best interest” to add them in the first place. Now he knows that not everyone was on board with the idea! Without the characters, I wonder what would have been criticized though.

      • jneal57

        no, it works cause he’s saying “we did this extra. it’s not included in the cost.”

        • Operative

          Okay, thank you for clarifying. Especially without feeling the need to be condescending like others 🙂

      • lordroto

        Wow that’s not even close to what he meant lol. Let me explain it to you in a way that’s easier on the ears. The full course meal is the roster, the free desert that was already prepared was the clones. He states right there that the clones were originally alternate costumes, but with a little stat modifications, a.k.a. very little work, he could make them into an alternate version of the existing character. It’s not that game that was provided free of charge, and I don’t know where you even got that, it was the clones, which were free being from the fact that they took minimal development into the game to be made. It’s like he said, if you go into a resturaunt and order your full course, (The game and it’s roster, clone-less) And the waiter goes, we’ve provided you free of charge desert (in the form of 3 clones) it’s a simple desert sure, Just a cupcake, nothing extravagant. But if you tell the waiter that you wanted something more high quality in your free desert. Well as you heard him say, it’s something he expects a child to say, to whine about something that created no negative effect on the game’s creation.

        • Operative

          Ah I see, I misinterpreted his analogy then. My bad

          • lordroto

            I didn’t mean to be so blunt about stuff like this. It’s just exhausting to see all this negativity all the time. I tell myself I need to stop rummaging around comment sections, but curiosity killed the cat lol…

        • MagcargoMan

          Alt costumes would have been way better. Plus Sakurai would have to do less work if they were just alts, meaning he gets more free time to do whatever he wants.

          • lordroto

            Alt costumes would have been better? That’s you’re opinion. You are entitled to it, as I am to disagree with you. However, assuming that that the clone characters just being relegated to costumes would free up his time to make something else is wrong. And if you haven’t figured it out, he did do whatever he wanted. He saw Alt costumes, had a little free time, and wanted to make them fleshed out clones with small differences. In other interviews he states it takes a long looooong time to make a completely new character. So what else would he add with that small bit of time he would have saved? A trophy? 2 Trophies? I love how everyone plays games thinks they know everything about the process that goes into making them. For the record I don’t, but you don’t have to be a genius to see what the director of the game is saying. Why not trust what the guy says about his own damn game.

          • MagcargoMan

            So, what you think that he would sit there and do nothing in the time saved if he just stuck with the alts? He could have easily spent that time to fix a few bugs/polish some iffy areas of the game.

            “In other interviews he states it takes a long looooong time to make a completely new character”

            Did I say I expected a different character? No I didn’t.

            “Why not trust what the guy says about his own damn game.”

            Well’s it kinda hard to trust a man who’s lied to his own fanbase before ()

          • MagcargoMan

            Not even gonna respond?

        • NameHere

          I’ll send you the same reply I sent Vero. I like to use random character select sometimes. I don’t like having twice the chance to pick a character because of clones.

          • lordroto

            I had a comment all ready to send to you, but I can’t bring myself to send it. All I can say to you, is “Wow”.

      • Glommo

        You’re right. Your $40 were wasted because Dark Pit is in the game.

        It really sucks. Forty dollars down the drain because between one and six characters out of a nearly fifty character roster were not to your liking.

        Sakurai truly is a monster.

        • Operative

          I didn’t say I was the one upset, did I? 😉

          • Glommo

            I know.

        • ronin4life

          But if a complimentary dessert had a human fingernail in it, would that not ruin your meal? If it made you vomit, would it not feel like a waste?

          And no, Sakurai is not a monster. But he IS human, so he isn’t perfect nor automatically above others simply because they complain.

          • Scorpio926

            Yes, but three characters that you can very easily ignore is no where near a human fingernail in your dessert. It’s more like you getting a free chocolate cupcake, but you don’t like chocolate. If you really think that these three characters ruin the game that much, then don’t buy it. Save your money and quit complaining.

            And yes, Sakurai is human. He makes mistakes, like thinking that people would appreciate his adding these characters into the game (Lucina to replace Roy, Dr. Mario to appease Melee Mario fans, Dark Pit for people who liked Kid Icarus Uprising). So why not treat him like a human and stop ridiculing him for a simple mistake?

          • MagcargoMan

            If he truly wanted to please Mario fans he’d just give Mario his old Down B and Down Aerial instead of FLUDD which barely anybody likes.

            And Uprising fans already got their character. She’s called “Palutena”.

          • Tylos

            Palutena is hardly an “Uprising” character considering she’s been around since the first game.

            Her character has been defined in Uprising but she’s been around much longer, as has Medusa and most of the villains. If you want Uprising characters there’s Hades, Viridi, Dark Pit and most of the bosses half way through the game and on. (If you’d played all the games you’d know) and which of those would be easier to introduce as a character? Sadly Dark Pit.

          • MagcargoMan

            Palutena barely had much to build off at all in the original. Everything about Palutena in Smash 4 is about Uprising. Her moves, design, voice, personality, everything. People didn’t even want her in Smash until Uprising revamped her.

            Palutena is very much an Uprising character. In the original game, she’s pretty much like Princess Peach from Super Mario Bros 1 in terms of depth or personality. Literally the only thing about Palutena that makes her a Kid Icarus NES character is that she appeared in that game.

          • Guest

            I believe it would have been in the game’s best interest to leave him as an alternate color, and safe that clone work time and manpower to bring in a clone of someone else, namely someone who has been around since the first game and hasn’t even had the chance to have another character around to call a fellow series bro. (Capt. Falcon or Samus. But primarily Samus.)

          • ALOIYD

            “give Mario his old Down B”

            HOW MUCH DO I HAVE TO SAY FLUDD AS DOWN B IS BETTER?

          • MagcargoMan

            How often do you like to be wrong?

          • ALOIYD

            How often do you like to be a moron?

            Listen, kid, If you say Tornado is better than FLUDD, i want to tell you something, Shut up and go play with some football.

            (P.S : You’re the prime example of irony)

          • MagcargoMan

            Oh go away you pathetic troll.

          • MagcargoMan

            Also, love how you call me the moron when you’re the one who thinks I’m a Brawl Hater because I don’t like FLUDD.

          • ALOIYD

            You like to become a child.

          • MagcargoMan

            Yeah, keep ignoring people when they call out your fallacies.

          • ALOIYD

            Look at your stupidself, You try to say i called you “Brawl Hater” once and you kept grabbing the word with you like a moron.

            Also, You’re too idiotic, i am really feeling the Dislikes onto you.

          • MagcargoMan

            Look at your stupidself, called me Brawl Hater when I’m not and when I called him out for it he wouldn’t admit his false accusation.

            Wow, a troll disliked my comment. I’m so hurt by this meanlingless vote on my comment.

          • ALOIYD

            Not funny, idiot.

            Let me tell you something, Forget about Tornados, Forget about FLUDD, Forget about your useless speech.

            and…
            STOP WHINING

          • MagcargoMan

            Yeah, not gonna address it are you?

            You truly are an idiot.

          • ALOIYD

            Shut up already, you want to make it long, huh?

            STOP THE FLAMES, MORON.

          • MagcargoMan

            Typical ignorant troll with no decency trying to pretend he’s right. Admit your fallacies.

          • ALOIYD

            Irony, It always come, listen, ignorant troll, You’re wrong, and I AM RIGHT, and everyone agrees about me, You cannot stop your idiotic opinion, I’ve just said “another fail guy”, Not “COME HERE I WANT FLAMES”, What i mean “fail guy” exactly is, You don’t know how to Mario, Now go back to your room crying in the corner and stop your pathetic speech.

          • MagcargoMan

            Love how you can’t even acknowledge it and go on deluded tangents. Either learn to stop being a pathetic coward or go away.

          • ALOIYD

            Hahahaha, Pathetic coward, huh?

            Either learn to stop being a fagofhell, or go away.

            Love how you can’t even acknowledge it and go on deluded tangents (can’t you see yourself?)

            Also, Mr.Child, I am seeing something.

            *You don’t ever learn what you say.*

          • MagcargoMan

            “fagofhell”

            What are you, 12?

            Either learn to admit when you make a false accusation or don’t bother commenting you ignorant troll.

          • ALOIYD

            I don’t bother commenting, Also, I said that word because YOU ALWAYS post bad posts (insults, which i mean), Now, Admit your defeat, false troll.

          • MagcargoMan

            Continue being ignorant. Such a stupid kid, couldn’t even admit why he illogically called someone a “Brawl Hater” for not liking a crappy Down Special Move. Keep spouting your BS.

          • ALOIYD

            Continue being ignorant, Such a stupid kid, couldn’t even admit why he illogically thought if someone said “Brawl Hater” it means you’re really a hater, Keep trolling.

          • MagcargoMan

            Love how you try to weasel your way out of your BS by claiming you were joking when you weren’t.

          • ALOIYD

            …Fine, i lose, but just stop, and i’ll too, okay?

          • MagcargoMan

            Yes, I will stop now.

          • MagcargoMan

            NO, you made a completely illogical argument. The only troll here is you.

          • ALOIYD

            Give me a proof before calling me a troll, I have many proofs.

          • MagcargoMan

            Proof: I said I didn’t like a crap move, which you somehow think means I’m a Brawl Hater.

            In what world is that a logical argument?

          • ALOIYD

            Oh well, That’s really illogical, but i weren’t trolling, though, Also, I don’t think it’s logical to say “idiot” to someone that called you “Brawl Hater”, but whatever, I think this war is too way long, Let’s stop it, And yes, i started it, sorry.

          • MagcargoMan

            Okay then. Thank you. If we meet again may it be on better terms.

          • ALOIYD

            “”I use tornado better than you”

            I’m so glad how you can spout “facts” when you’ve never seen me play Smash Bros. Try again.

            “and i say, FLUDD is better than you, “Brawl Hater”.”

            I love Brawl, you freaking idiot.

            (P.S : Dr Mario should have never existed in Smash outside of an alt costume.)”

            You called me idiot, Obvious enough, Yes, i said brawl hater, but then YOU called me idiot, try that next time.

          • MagcargoMan

            It was justified, you called me a Brawl Hater because I hated one move. There is no logic in that, and is hence idiotic.

          • ALOIYD

            Fine, Call me whatever you want, I lose, But just stop, and i’ll too, If you want me to say sorry, FINE, sorry.

          • MagcargoMan

            Thank you, this would have saved a lot of time if you just did this a while back.

          • ALOIYD

            Well, You can call me an idiot now, I just re-checked and i really messed up.

          • MagcargoMan

            Why did you even have to recheck, I literally pointed out it didn’t make sense to call that in the first reply after you said it?

            I won’t call you an idiot though. When I did it before it was justified, but saying now when you acknowledged the mistake would just be slack of me to do so.

          • ALOIYD

            Not funny, idiot.

            Let me tell you something, Forget about Tornados, Forget about FLUDD, Forget about your useless speech.

            and…
            STOP WHINING

          • Guest

            It’s a matter of opinion, but I can say that F.L.U.D.D. has been used in creative ways since his continued existence in the 3DS haha

          • Guest

            Unfortunately, it’s hard to ignore them during wifi.

        • MagcargoMan

          If you pay for $40 for a great soup but it has a hairball in it you’re not allowed to complain about the haitball because the rest of the soup was to your liking.

          • Glommo

            That’s not what I said.

            Learn how to read.

        • John H Player

          40 dollars wasted on a loading bubble with a L in it. lag freak fest

      • Moreck

        The dinner (for which you paid) is the game, and the free dessert is the clone characters. The analogy works perfectly.

        • ronin4life

          But it was an analogy: it was made to sound convincing in the first place.
          I even made my own, though NE felt the need to hold it back and it was never posted. It really isn’t hard to use euphimisms to make a point sound smarter or more definitive than it may actually be.

          Politicians do this all the time.

        • Guest

          I consider the free dessert to be akin to giving chocolate to someone who dislikes chocolate. I’m sorry sir, thank you for the compliment dessert, but I am going to just choose to leave it here rather than have it stink up my car on the way home.

          (PS I like chocolate, as well as desserts, but not all the time. He shouldn’t have added them in if it was going to be such a problem. Or just alternate colors.)

    • but….. the dessert tastes barely different from the main meal!

      • Guest

        And it has a little mold on it…

    • LordTerminal

      Manchildren is more appropriate. Almost every critic now is a grown a** man complaining like a child over crap that doesn’t really matter.

      • MagcargoMan

        Typical apologist. Is manchildren your buzzword for people who don’t mindlessly agree with every decision the objectively flawless Sakurai makes?

      • Guest

        Or we can continue to express ourselves in a civil manner, so that Sakurai (or whoever will be in charge of future installments) can know that, hey, not the entire fandom is cool with Dark Pit going from alternate color to separate character. Some of us want him to waste time on something else, haha!

        It’s not wrong to point out Sakurai’s bad decisions.

    • MagcargoMan

      I know, right? Sakurai showed how much of a child he is when people call him out on his BS.

  • ZeldaWiiUTakeMyLife

    Sakurai is tired of all your BS, nintendo fanboys.

    • Kalis Konig

      Two-way street for a lot of people.

      • LordDisco

        If you’re implying that Sakurai is BSing, then you are only supporting the initial commenter’s “nintendo fanboys” comment.

        Sakurai is doing his job, and his job is to make games based on how HE thinks they should be. He doesn’t have to listen to anyone. It’s his job and dream. Not yours. Imagine if you were an artist and created a beautiful painting, only to find people come up to you and suggesting you change certain aspects of the painting. They say things like, “The canvas is the wrong size”, “You used too much green”, “Why did you paint an indoor scene? Outside scenes are so much better!”, “Oil-based paint? Really? Water colors are WAY better.”, etc.

        That’s what we’re dealing with here. Smash Bros is Sakurai’s work of art, and it needs to be allowed to be his. When we, the fans, think we have a right to argue or change his creative thinking, then we are becoming spoiled, idiotic brats.

        • durg

          If he wants it to be art, then his art is open to all the criticism it can get.

          • LordDisco

            Criticism is one thing, but that’s not the case with the ridiculous fanboys here. They are complaining. Complaining about characters, content, levels, etc that they think shoulda/coulda been in Smash Bros. That’s not criticism at all. Criticism is judging something in its finalized state, and now that Smash Bros is out, go ahead an criticize all you want. But don’t complain about the game not having particular characters or having clones. That part of development was not YOUR decision to make, so give up your worthless complaints.

            If you want to be critical, judge Smash Bros for its actual flaws and NOT for its professional direction.

          • ronin4life

            It’s direction is what leads to flaws and greatness though, and what isn’t present is very much a legitamate criticism of what could have been.

            Writing off unwanted complaints, criticism and dissapointment as only infantilism or fanboyism is just as infantile and fanboyish as the people you are lambasting.

          • LordDisco

            Yes. But the inclusion and exclusion or characters or levels doesn’t degrade the game at all. If you think so, then you are fooling yourself. Smash Bros has 49 characters for crying out loud! Why are people still complaining about this garbage?

            When I talked about real criticism, let’s talk about the real points, not the stupid “Where are te ice climbers?!” crap. The controls aren’t very good. That’s a viable critique. The screen on the original 3DS is very small for Smash Bros, and it’s hard to see what’s going on some times. That’s a genuine criticism. The menus are a bit confusing to navigate, Smash Run is kind of stupid compared to actual Smash matches, etc.

            That is how you criticize. Complaining that they should have put Chrom in the game instead of Black Pit is stupid. Who cares? Black Pit is really the only carbon-copy clone in the game, and he’s actually pretty fun to play with! Some people even complained about Wolf’s exclusion, when he was a clone as well. Fanboys just want to complain for the sake of complaining, because they are rarely-to-never satisfied.

            Despite it’s actual flaws, Smash Bros 3DS is awesome! Tons of content, lots of great characters and stages, lots of modes to enjoy, and considering the hardware, Sakurai did a lot for a 3DS game. It’s impressive, despite its shortcomings.

          • ronin4life

            I don’t agree. Mario Kart has loads of characters too, yet look at the actual characters there. And Smash has a pretty large roster of characters absent from 4, which is a very legitamate criticism when leveled against what is there for those unhappy

            You are writing off criticism you don’t like as not being criticism, just like Sakurai is. Of course we can’t be critical of what a game doesn’t have, but being critical of what it COULD HAVE BEEN is what criricism is in the first place, and characters are the most important part of smashes game design.

            As a side note, I also say your critiques are leveled more on 3ds than Smash. But as represented in the software I Personally think the controlls work just fine and the screen isn’t a problem for me either.

          • Budgiecat

            Chrom woulda been better.

            As a developer, you’re supposed to wanna challenge yourself; not be lazy. And as such, achieving such challenges yields praise. Aint nobody praising Dark Pit’s inclusion because we all know he’s a lazily made clone. Chrom wouldn’t have been. Bayonetta wouldn’t have been…

          • Aura Shadow

            Yeah but those unique characters would have taken more time and money that Lucina and the other clones didnt. He could have made those characters if he had the money sure, but then it would come out like next March maybe. heck let’s just add every nintendo character and have it come out in 2087.

          • Budgiecat

            Maybe dont split your resources in 2 games then…

          • TalesOfBS

            This.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Why are people still complaining about this garbage?”

            Because clones are garbage.

            “When I talked about real criticism, let’s talk about the real points, not the stupid “Where are te ice climbers?!” crap.”

            Not stupid. Sakurai cut a character that was working in the Wii U version but cut them simply because they couldn’t be in the 3DS version. Pointing out one version of a game holding back the other for a completely arbitrary reason like “I want both versions to have the same characters, but I’d rather you miss out on this character completely” is a valid complaint.

            “Smash Run is kind of stupid compared to actual Smash matches, etc”

            >Tells us what’s petty
            >Makes a petty complaint

            “Some people even complained about Wolf’s exclusion, when he was a clone as well.”

            Wolf had at least half his normal moves unique from Fox’s. Do your research.

          • LordDisco

            Not at all. Sakurai didn’t have to keep you updated about anything. He didn’t have to do the Twitter and Miiverse updates, he didn’t have to do the Nintendo Directs, and he didn’t have to tell you all of the stuff that was going to be included. He did all of that to inform the fans and the passionate project he was working on, and he assumed people would be excited about it. In Japan, fans are excited, but in America, fans are being irrational.

            What isn’t present is only a case by comparison. People who are mad about the exclusion of certain characters either think they are entitled to something they clearly don’t deserve OR they absolutely don’t understand game development, programming, and direction. If you even try to listen to Sakurai and has rational explanations, you would see that he tried his best to include all that he desired to include. Complaining about character exclusion is just childish.

          • Budgiecat

            professional direction can’t lead to actual flaws?

            lol okay Einstein…

          • Smash is a mascot brawler. It’s roster (being the most important part, for many) is definitely something up for criticism.

          • LordDisco

            And it has 49 characters, for crying out loud. What did you want? 100 characters? Give me a break. The original Smash Bros on N64 had 12 characters, and it is still hailed as one of the best Smash Bros. Melee had only 26 characters, and most people agree that it is the best Smash Bros. The 3DS version has FORTY-NINE characters. That is almost double the roster of Melee, and yet, you still find it something to complain about. Get off of your high horse and not crying about the exclusion of some character no one really cares about. The roster is solid! And given the fact that Nintendo is warming up to DLC, I wouldn’t doubt that most characters will join the fray.

          • Aura Shadow

            This is so true I totally agree with it. I think you should also mention how not only is melee considered one of the best smash bros. but it also has MORE clones than the new smashbros. Funny how that works.

          • LordDisco

            Exactly! People need to get the sticks our their butts and relax. It’s a great roster, and it’s a lot of fun!

          • MagcargoMan

            The irony of telling people to get of their high horse when you’ve been dismissing anyone who doesn’t agree with decisions from the flawless Sakurai.

          • MagcargoMan

            Clones are an actual flaw. Ever heard of quality over quantity? Less is more?

            It is constructive. Clones are unprofessional padding. It’s purely an attempt to bolster the roster count. Most people would have been happy with the alt costumes. Alph and the Koopalings are alts and their fans are happy with that.

          • Guest

            Additionally; what’s there to critique if not the character selection, content, levels, etc? It is as if you’re saying “critique, but don’t say anything.”

        • I agree it is his work of art. But besides creating art, he is creating a product. And you can’t make a product without taking the consumer into consideration. Also, as both art and as a product, it is open for criticism.

          • LordDisco

            You CAN make a product without consumer consideration. How many indie games out there were made with zero consumer awareness and ended up being amazing? Just about all of them.

            How about Nintendo when they initially created all of their stellar first-party games? They didn’t need your input or complaints to make them great, because the creators and developers professionally did that.

            I understand criticism when its deserved, and Smash Bros 3DS has its flaws. However, the exclusion and inclusion of characters is beyond not a flaw. 49 characters? Are you kidding me? Complaining about that is just ridiculous.

          • Quality>quantity

          • LordDisco

            I hope that comment is agreeing with me, because I totally agree. I’d rather Smash Bros have 49 characters that all work great within the parameters of the game than have 100 characters that crash the game constantly.

          • Budgiecat

            …which gets watered down when you add…clones. So no, he was not agreeing with you lol

          • LordDisco

            Okay. Let’s dissect your comment. The new Smash Bros has only 3 clones; Black Pitt, Dr Mario, and Lucina. Everyone else is original and quite unique. Even those three clones, though, have unique actions and Final Smashes, which does make them more unique.

            Now, let’s go back to Smash Bros Melee, which is prevailed the best Smash Bros. It has FOUR clones, one more than the new series. And let’s break that down even more, it has FOUR clones out of 26 characters. The new Smash Bros has THREE clones out of 49 characters. And yet, people are complaining heavily about the new Smash roster? Are you kidding me?

            Watered down. You are funny.

          • Budgiecat

            And how old is Melee now? +10 years? lol you’re supposed to improve not devolve; nor try to make desperate comparisons with older games on weaker hardware and less know how compared to present time..

          • LordDisco

            Are you mental or something? How are less clones and double the amount of playable characters devolving?? Smash Bros 3DS is better in every way, but spoiled kids think they deserve more then they are getting. It’s a huge package and definitely worth its $40.

            And I’m comparing it to Melee, because crybabies weren’t screaming bloody murder during the Melee days, despite it having more clones than the current Smash Bros. When you have 49 characters and only 3 are clones, that means there are 46 UNIQUE playable characters. How is that watered down in the slightest???

          • Budgiecat

            Because there shouldn’t be ANY clones you 70’s afro wearing bell bottom leisure suit havin’, pork chop sideburns flauntin’, oversized collar flashin’, big brown sunglasses wearin’, fingertip pointin to the sequined ball in the sky posin’ Lord of bad dance music!

          • MadCrain

            You’re such a spoiled brat, here’s an idea, if you get the game tape the slots where the clones are so you can’t see them, problem solved!

          • Budgiecat

            I can’t hear you with all the loud Disco music playing!

          • MagcargoMan

            You must be experienced in solving problems. Do you use whiteout to fix the spelling errors you see on screen?

          • MadCrain

            No, I decide to ignore them and move on, crazy right?

          • MagcargoMan

            Must be crazy when you have “Mad” in your username. 😛 /bad joke

          • MadCrain

            lel

          • LordDisco

            If there shouldn’t be any clones, then why are people complaining about the lack of Roy and Wolf, who are clearly clones? People just want to complain for the sake of complaining, which is what Sakurai is joking about here when he’s talking about babies.

            And let’s talk about your “there shouldn’t be ANY clones” comment. What do you think of Street Fighter? Mortal Kombat? Guilty Gear? BlazBlue? Tekken? Virtua Fighter? Or pretty much any other fighting game? Every single one of those games have clones. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Ken is a copy of Ryu, and both of them are hailed by the fighting community as BOTH being awesome. What is seriously the problem with clones? To me, it just sounds like you have nothing better to do than complain.

            And on top of that, my sunglasses are black… with reflector shades, thank you very much. And I guess you hating on Smash Bros shouldn’t surprise me when you hate disco either. Maybe you’re just jealous that the Bee Gees made a whole lot more money than you’ll ever make in your lifetime, and they did it by pointing to that diamond in the sky. 😉

          • MagcargoMan

            “Maybe you’re just jealous that the Bee Gees made a whole lot more money than you’ll ever make in your lifetime”

            Welp, there goes any hope that you will respond to any of my comments with an actual constructive argument.

          • MagcargoMan

            No they don’t. Dr Mario has Mario Finale but with pills instead of fire, Lucina has the same Final Smash as Marth’s, and Dark Pit’s is basically Zelda’s Light Arrow.

            Also Melee has 6 clones.

          • VladNorris

            That’s not counting the non-revamped recurring clones, which make the game have six clones in a roster of 49 characters.
            That’s above 10% of cloned material

          • LordDisco

            Not true at all. Every past clone has absolutely been revamped, especially Ganondorf. Even Black Pitt isn’t exactly the same as Pitt, so technically, he’s not a cloned character. Not in the same way Fox and Falco originally were.

            And if you dove deep enough into the new Smash Bros, you’d know that Dr Mario, Black Pitt, and Lucina have very different alternate moves thanks to unlocks.

            And for every person who dislikes clones, there are people who also like the clones. It’s the same argument used in the past with Street Fighter characters Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sakura, Dan, and Gouken, who are all basically the same with slightly different animations and strengths. Every one of them use hadouken, and yet, fans love them all for their slightly different ways. The same can be said for Smash Bros. On Brawl, there were many fans who like Fox more than Wolf and Falco, Falco more than Wolf and Fox, and Wolf more than Fox and Falco. It depends on the person is all.

            You can’t devalue clones because you and the vocal majority vehemently hate them. A lot of us who either like them or don’t care to bother getting into these petty arguments about their worth. We enjoy them, as they were intended to be.

          • Creating new IPs are not the same as creating sequels. For SSB in particular, Sakurai needs to listen to the fans, to a certain extent. I am not saying he needs to do whatever the fans want, I am saying he needs to take them under consideration. He needs to know what characters people want to see in the new game. Trust me, if there weren’t characters I wanted to see in this game, I wouldn’t have bought it.

            But you are absolutely right about complaining about the roster. Even though it is not perfect, it is the best and biggest roster the series has ever seen. No doubt about that.

          • MagcargoMan

            “I understand criticism when its deserved”

            It’s clear at this point that this is not the case.

        • You win all the glory tonight sir. You have summed up everything to defend what Sakurai needs for his game.
          I agree with you 100%.

          • Budgiecat

            stop tossing his and Sakurai’s salad

          • LordDisco

            Go make your own Smash Bros and give us a call when it’s done so we can praise you for your wonderful skills in programming, directing, designing, and sales marketing. I’m sure your genius can come up with a better game than Sakurai in no time. So hurry up and get on that game! The gaming world needs it! You can be the savior of the gaming world!

            Go forth, now, brave Budgiecat! You are humanity’s only hope!

          • Budgiecat

            Fine! I will!

            *storms out*

          • Bugdiecat

            you go girl.

          • Budgiecat

            hi McPoo

          • MagcargoMan

            More fail logic. Guess movie critics shouldn’t be allowed to criticise movies unless they’ve made their own first?

            Apologists have the worst logic. If they had it their way criticism wouldn’t even exist.

          • LordDisco

            Actually, you make a valid point, but you know what movie critics don’t do? Judge movies before they are even finished OR judge movies for not including something they believe should or shouldn’t have been in the movie. That’s the BS logic that fanboys are using against Sakurai and Smash Bros. If you were criticizing Smash Bros logically, I would totally understand, because it definitely has its flaws.

            What all of the whiners are crying about is that Sakurai didn’t include Mewtwo, Wolf, Ice Climbers, or whoever else. It’s as if their exclusion makes the game terrible, which is the stupidest logic I’ve ever heard. It’s like people losing their mind over pre-order exclusives. Little details like that don’t make or break a game, so why do we waste so much time bickering about such details?

            Look, criticize Smash Bros the right way. Talk about the final product. The lag issues, the confusing menu, the screen size making matches hard to see well, etc. There are definitely issues, but saying the exclusion or inclusion of a character is a “flaw” is just dumb.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Judge movies before they are even finished” – Smash 3DS is finished. It’s been out for over a week now, and for over a month in Japan.

            “OR judge movies for not including something they believe should or shouldn’t have been in the movie.” – So you’ve never seen a movie critic talk about padding scenes or unnecessary plot points or plot holes?

            “There are definitely issues, but saying the exclusion or inclusion of a character is a “flaw” is just dumb.” – Never said once that I was mad about an absent character. Don’t say something is dumb if your gonna make dumb arguments like that?

            And no, criticising clones is a valid flaw. They are lazy pointless padding. If people can’t complain about characters in a game then people aren’t allowed to complain about characters in a movie like Jar Jar Binks in Star Wars. If we’re not allowed to complain about padding, then people are not allowed to complain about filler scenes/episodes in movies/tv shows.

        • sexyboiy1 .

          yeah… but…When you want to sell that painting… LOL i think you see where i am going with this. Its cool to paint what you want if its only for you. But you can’t sell something for the people without taking in a lot of their ideas and feed back. Im not starting an argument I’m just saying if you want people to buy your work than paint what they like.

          • LordDisco

            I still don’t like this idea, because it only supports that same sense of entitlement on the side of the consumer. Musicians, painters, and indie developers don’t care what the consumer initially thinks, because they are making something that they love first.

            Nintendo has made some of the best game franchises in gaming history, and they did all of that without the consult of consumers. They did it with their original thinking and strong creativity. Smash Bros is one of those ideas, and Sakurai has turned it into one of the most entertaining fighting games on the market.

            “if you want people to buy your work than paint what they like.” I’m quoting you here, because I have to ask you; do you not like Smash Bros on 3DS? Is it a bad game? Are you really disappointed with the roster, game modes, and amount of content? Do you think you could make a better game given the resources and time?

          • sexyboiy1 .

            i agree with you completely everyone can’t be happy with what you say and do but from my stance i feel like he kinda just didn’t care to take anyone of his fans opinions. I checked out the 3DS version on youtube and i heard the wii u version is supposed to be the same and i didn’t like what i saw. so I’m not getting the game

          • MagcargoMan

            “Do you think you could make a better game given the resources and time?”

            Logic died a sad and tragic death today.

          • LordDisco

            No it didn’t, because people keep crying over nothing. It’s as if gamers think they are entitled to more for absolutely no reason. Most gamers don’t even realize the amount of time and work that goes into a game, and yet, they want to bicker and complain about the stupidest details. Not only that, but these same neurotic fanboys think that the developers should listen to all of them personally, as if their input is better than that of the creator. It’s ridiculous thinking, and if developers did listen to fan input exclusively, games would probably suck, honestly.

          • MagcargoMan

            “No it didn’t, because people keep crying over nothing.” – That’s your opinion.

            “It’s as if gamers think they are entitled to more for absolutely no reason” – How is wanting clones to stay as alts more? That’s wanting less, genius.

            “It’s ridiculous thinking, and if developers did listen to fan input exclusively, games would probably suck, honestly.” – Slippery-slope fallacy. You can have a balance.

          • IAmAlwaysRightNotReally

            Adding clones is like giving a random present along with the fare. You may not like the gift, båt it is the thought that county. Crappy presents are still presents. BTW I like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit…..

          • LordDisco

            That’s kind of my point to a degree. Whining about the roster gets so boring because everyone complains about something different. Clones, missing characters, certain added characters, etc. It’s like Sakurai HAS to listen to all fans about everything, and that’s the ridiculous nature of the whole argument.

            The funny thing is that Sakurai DID listen to fans a lot, and characters like the Villager were made a reality thanks to fan input. But there is nothing wrong with clones. Some times characters are just similar by nature, and a lot of Fire Emblem characters could be the same based on their actions in the Fire Emblem universe. Same with Mario/Dr Mario and Pit/Dark Pit. All of those characters actually exist, so they aren’t “clones” in the Nintendo Universe, even if they act similar within the Smash Bros game.

            We should just be excited by this massive roster! With 50 characters and an endless possibility thanks to the Mii fighter, Smash Bros for the 3DS boasts one of the largest fighting rosters ever. Technically, since there are 3 different Mii fighter styles, that’s 3 more characters that we haven’t been including into the argument.

          • VladNorris

            The problem in your logic is that this game is fanservice, so the art analogy means squat here. The game’s based around fanservice, so Sakurai should consider first what the fans want. He won’t be able to please everyone, that’s for sure, but when you disregard the disliking of clones that has been present for a while(it isn’t exclusive to this game by any means), you’re making a bad decision.

          • Glommo

            The far more egregious problem seems to be the conviction of a lot of people here (not necessarily saying that’s you) that they somehow represent a large amount of the audience.

            Maybe the vast majority of the audience likes clones. Maybe the vast majority of the audience has a different opinion than you.

            For example, one of the most requested characters from Japan is Dark Pit. A character that is quite literally a clone, even in the game the character originates from. That is not to say he can’t have different moves than Pit so much as it is to say that just because you are convinced “a lot of fans” are dissatisfied with the fan service, doesn’t mean this is necessarily the truth at all.

            Perhaps the majority of fans do like this character roster? Perhaps the majority of fans aren’t busying themselves with posting about it on the internet.

            There is no way to know. The only clue is Sakurai saying that people who choose not to understand that clones are a fundamentally different design process than regular characters, can’t help it because they are most likely children. I take from that because he thinks an adult would not spend their time complaining about it further once they understand this simple fact.

            Maybe if the game is fanservice, it just doesn’t serve everyone. That group may or may not include you, I have no idea. But that group clearly does not include those who keep complaining. Which seems to be the minority. And fanservice is fundamentally for the majority, not the minority.

            Unless of course someone here could provide the evidence that it is not, which I have asked for many times now but which has never been provided.

          • Tylos

            The problem I find with fanservice games is that some fanservice doesn’t appeeal to everyone.

            For example being a Fire Emblem fan I was overjoyed with how much representation the franchise got this time around, while others thought it was too much Fire Emblem, too much of a game they’d “never heard about” (sad but true) and some FE fans thought the neglect of Chrom in favor of Robin/Lucina was inexcusable.

            Then we have Shulk and I’m overall the same: overjoyed! But then there are others who react with: “who is that?” In both neutral and negative fashions.

            It’s not that they’re not fans of smash but rather not fans of every particular franchise represented. In smash you can find fans of Mario who dislike STARFOX. F-Zero fans who dislike MOTHER. And so on and so forth.

            Dark Pit is by all means fanservice. It isn’t fanservice for all fans though. I forgot to mention fanbases from different regions as yet another example of people who have different ideas as to what fanservice is. I am a Kid Icarus Fan, I love Dark Pit’s theme and his character develpment through the game is quite enjoyable. Though I personally would have preferred Hades as a new Commer to smash. But then I must take into account how much work giving him a new moveset, making his model and animating him would be. In which case an easier route is a clone character that may disappoint some but remains an example of fanservice to others.

            Those disappointed just happen to be the more vocal group. More vocal minority? More vocal majority? Who knows. But they’re the ones making themselves be heard. And sadly many are quite ignorant to how game development works. I’d like it if those who were fine and knew what they were talking about were more vocal since if only those dissatisfied are vocal they end up affecting the game more as they are heard the most.

          • Glommo

            Completely agreed.

            For example, I don’t like Zero Suit Samus. I would rather have had a different character than her. However, that doesn’t mean you can’t realize that there may be people who like Zero Suit Samus. Same goes for Dark Pit. (I’d also rather had Hades myself)

            My problem isn’t so much with people who say “I would rather have had this clone than that clone.” But people who say “This clone shows the development team was lazy.”, simply because they don’t like the character.

            It’s fine to be disappointed. I think Lucas is a better clone than Dark Pit. But to then conclude that because your favorite character isn’t in, and you know a couple of other people think the same, Sakurai is tone-deaf, lazy and doesn’t know how to please his fans is unbelievably egocentric. There are people who like Dark Pit. Disregarding them because you don’t is just plain dumb.

            Thanks for the reasonable response.

          • MagcargoMan

            “But people who say “This clone shows the development team was lazy.”, simply because they don’t like the character.”

            Or they like the character and just hate lazy copypaste movesets?

            “There are people who like Dark Pit. Disregarding them because you don’t is just plain dumb.”

            >acts like you are reasonable
            >uses strawman arguments like insisting people hate the actual character when what they actually hate is the character having a clone moveset

          • MagcargoMan

            “I’d like it if those who were fine and knew what they were talking about were more vocal”

            If we had more vocal apologists like you tripping would have stayed in Smash 4.

            “if only those dissatisfied are vocal they end up affecting the game more as they are heard the most.”

            Clearly they don’t since Sakurai still insists on lazy roster filler.

          • Tylos

            Apologist… Hmmm… So I’m an apologist? The way you usually use that word gives it a negative connotation. Whereas the word’s definition itself isn’t outright negative but this is the Internet after all so… Many words are used as insults when they normally wouldn’t be.

            I suppose this is, somehow, a controversial topic and I am offering an argument about it.

            I know that Sakurai isn’t perfect. He doesn’t always listen. I am posing an example of what does make itself more clear on the web though. I just propose that those who know more about the subject talk about it. I need objective points of view. Those would be reliable sources: objective points that depict pros and cons. Not subjective statements that drip with bias whether positive or negative. But people are biased by default so that’s a dream that probably won’t ever come true.

            Now I actually don’t mind subjective points either if they are balanced but whenever two opposite sides meet it often results in argument as war and one has to come out on top because of humanity’s inflated ego. It’d be nice if both came to agreements but self serving bias results in one side only seeing negatives and the other only seeing positives. Both of which are issues. Nobody is perfect, neither am I, I am not God. And even if I was there’d be those who’d oppose my ideas.

            But I also understand the wrongs of having so many clones, honestly I was outraged at first till I looked deeper. If the clones were truly quantity over quality they’d have cut into the other characters’ development and made them less than they could be. Did they? I don’t honestly know but I am satisfied with the non clones, and even if I largely ignore the clones they haven’t made the other characters any less enjoyable.

            Now if Sakurai were to confess at any point that the clones cut into a possible new comer or the development of any character’s moveset, I’d be incredibly angry at Sakurai, not to the point that I wouldn’t buy the games (I need smash to Liiiiive! (not really)) but at the very least I wouldn’t be arguing with you, wouldn’t be considered an apologist by you (and probably others) and overall wouldn’t care enough about the game to defend it from any criticism in this aspect.

          • MagcargoMan

            “The way you usually use that word gives it a negative connotation.”

            Well I don’t see how defending controversial decisions for the sake of it can be considered a positive thing.

            “Now if Sakurai were to confess at any point that the clones cut into a possible new comer or the development of any character’s moveset”

            Maybe not in this game (that we know of), but Sakurai admitted he was going to make King Dedede a character in Melee but chose the six clones (Doc, Pichu, Young Link, Falco, Ganondorf, Roy) for the sake of having a larger roster count. If that’s not quantity over quality then I’m not sure what qualifies.

            Look, you may consider me unreasonable, but there’s no way you should be talking to me about being objective, when the only reason I responded to you in a negative manner was because of things you said that weren’t exactly objective either. Dismissing people who don’t like Dark Pit as “quite ignorant to how game development works.” and don’t ” [know] what they were talking about”. I know very well that Dark Pit didn’t steal anyone’s “slot”, and that without him there’d be one less character. But he’s unnecessary padding and just pointless overepping of Uprising. I’m positive that plenty would have been happy with him being an alt costume for Pit, like how most Koopaling fans don’t care that they are alts instead of their own characters.

          • MagcargoMan

            So not even going to respond?

          • Tylos

            Ah sorry, been hit with a lot of work recently. But alright. What was it again… Ok I think I remember. Apologist. Yeah most apologists can be seen as negatives but I’ve seen some that aren’t. Not all apologists should be put together as not all controversial topics are as bad as each other and some have their good points that can be understood as long a the whole isn’t accepted wholeheartedly,

            I suppose I’d be an apologist for trying to understand why Sakurai put clones in as filler content but I Try to look at it from their point of view occasionally and thy puts me at odds with others. I can understand the 3DS version is overall rushed, the clones could have simply been alt costumes and Dark Pit himself should have stayed an alt.

            I just don’t understand why these three characters detract from the overall character roster quality and gameplay overall since they are extra. Now some things that due detract would be the lack of gameplay modes and options in the 3DS version. The overall lack of certain features that were in Brawl an Melee but not here. The item switch the lack of description in trophies (I know not everyone cares but if I see some interesting trophy I’d like to know what game it’s from so I can Try it but nope) those are things I cant understand and will have to settle with the wiiU version and hardly ever go back to 3DS except when I’m out since it is a portable game. With few stages and modes. Also making custom item gets randomized and being able to get repeats but that’s just me complaining now and If I have to unlock everything again on the wiiU I’ll be pissed.

          • MagcargoMan

            Okay then. Thank you for replying.

            I’m not sure if you were remembered off by heart or not, but there was some other parts of my last comment I’d like to be addressed. I’ll repost them here for your convenience:

            “Now if Sakurai were to confess at any point that the clones cut into a possible new comer or the development of any character’s moveset”

            Maybe not in this game (that we know of), but Sakurai admitted he was going to make King Dedede a character in Melee but chose the six clones (Doc, Pichu, Young Link, Falco, Ganondorf, Roy) for the sake of having a larger roster count. If that’s not quantity over quality then I’m not sure what qualifies.

            Look, you may consider me unreasonable, but there’s no way you should be talking to me about being objective, when the only reason I responded to you in a negative manner was because of things you said that weren’t exactly objective either. Dismissing people who don’t like Dark Pit as “quite ignorant to how game development works.” and don’t ” [know] what they were talking about”. I know very well that Dark Pit didn’t steal anyone’s “slot”, and that without him there’d be one less character. But he’s unnecessary padding and just pointless overepping of Uprising. I’m positive that plenty would have been happy with him being an alt costume for Pit, like how most Koopaling fans don’t care that they are alts instead of their own characters.

          • Tylos

            Ah o those were the other things. Thanks for reminding me.

            I can’t argue about the Melee game. It’s in te past and there is bias. There are people who liked those clone characters strangely enough like Roy but even so I understand. I knew about the Dedede situation but as stated earlier it’s a different game, one I honestly don’t care much for which kind of gets you an answer that better correlates with yours…? I don’t care for any of the clone characters and in that case it most certainly is quantity over quality as well as a chance to advertise more… But that was 6 clones for 1 unique character. In the case of smash 4 it is 2 new clones and an old one. We don’t know if any character was neglected. But if eventually he admits that a character was replaced by the clones then… Yeah. I’ll not be too happy. Specially about Dark Pit. Honestly I use him more as a troll character. Even more so than Duck Hunt.

            Now the Ignorant about game development part. When you put it out like that I realize how it can be taken quite badly. I often use words that end up sounding rude merely because I don’t like the same expressions being used again but when I said ignorant I didn’t meant “Stupid”. Everyone is ignorant about certain things. Not all of the people calling out Dark pit are the same. Some are ignorant about game development and it shows in how they talk/type as it actually reads as quite childish and… Uninformed? Is that better than ignorant? I’m also ignorant or uninformed about different subject so I didn’t mean to be rude. There could very well be people who know about Game Development who called Dark Pit out. It is also an error in my part as not everyone can think like me and interpret what I type as what I meant. I don’t talk about stuff I haven’t studied for a long enough time to understand it but not everyone does the same.

            When I made that comment it most likely sounds like I meant ALL of the people calling dark pit or clone characters out were ignorant when I meant to speak generally of the few or many that are uninformed. It appears I’ve lost my train of thought… If I missed anything please remind me.

            I am ignorant to certain subjects such as… Whatever it is I don’t know about… I guess I can also understand that as well. We don’t all know wht we are ignorant about because we don’t want to feel inferior and so we deny the idea that we don’t know about something and press on stubbornly. I probably would make similar mistake and wouldn’t be able to realiZe how uninformed I am about a subject till I was called out and driven to a corner. All of our knowledge is limited I suppose and though I may have studied many things there is a threshhold and once I a conversation starts surpassing said threshhold I am uninformed and ignorant. It is a sort of idealism in which we hope out knowledge about subjects we’re passionate about to be infinite and refuse to realize our limits which can result in discord and the such… Am I repeating myself? I must be. Tell me what I’ve missed and I’ll reply further.

          • MagcargoMan

            Nope you covered everything in that post. There was two other posts though.

            One post where you said I probably despise Kamiya even though I don’t, simply because I said Sakurai couldn’t take the criticism. Kamiya calling out people feels justified because they say stupid stuff to him like whining about Bayonetta 2 being a Wii U-exclusive. But here it just feels like Sakurai’s not tolerant of criticism. If you like clones, that’s fine. I’m not gonna force you to change your mind on them. But I’m just sick of all these people who dogpile on anybody who dares to criticise the idea of characters with recycled movesets.

            The second was where you said “Palutena is hardly an “Uprising” character considering she’s been around since the first game.” So I said:

            “Palutena barely had much to build off at all in the original. Everything about Palutena in Smash 4 is about Uprising. Her moves, design, voice, personality, everything. People didn’t even want her in Smash until Uprising revamped her.

            Palutena is very much an Uprising character. In the original game, she’s pretty much like Princess Peach from Super Mario Bros 1 in terms of depth or personality. Literally the only thing about Palutena that makes her a Kid Icarus NES character is that she appeared in that game.”

            Anyway, thank you for taking the time to reply to me. I feel much better that this conversation is less hostile now.

          • LordDisco

            But you just said yourself that he can’t please everyone, and then in the same breath said that he’s disregarding the disliking of clones. I have never had a problem with the clones in Smash Bros games, mostly because they allowed me to play with a different character than the more popular one (e.g. Fox and Falco).

            Honestly, in the 3DS Smash Bros, I like all of the 3 clones. Black Pitt especially is getting too much flack. Sure, he’s not totally originally, but Sakurai made Kid Icarus Uprising and was really proud of it. The inclusion of both Palutena and Black Pitt must have been very exciting for him. He and all of the Uprising fans know that Black Pitt is NOT Pitt, and I’m sure Uprising fans are very pleased with Black Pitt’s inclusion.

            It’s all a matter of perspective.

          • MagcargoMan

            Here’s a matter of perspective you’ve been ignoring.

            Kid Icarus is overrepped. Only three games, but gets three characters, six items and EIGHTEEN Smash Run enemies.

            “Uprising fans know that Black Pitt is NOT Pitt”

            Plenty of people know he’s not Pit, doesn’t change the fact that he’s a clone in Smash Bros.

          • LordDisco

            Kid Icarus is overrepped… for you. I think three characters is perfect! But in my opinion, I would have rather had Medusa instead of Black Pitt. Despite that, Black Pitt is still a fun character. Clones aren’t as bad as you and numerous others keep making them out to be. And on top of that, Pitt and Black Pitt are not identical, which means they aren’t carbon copy clones. They differ slightly on attacks, having completely different Final Smashes, and recovery is different. Yes, they are very similar, but they are just different enough to have two unique characters from a universe where both characters are adored.

            And again, Kid Icarus is well represented because Sakurai and his team worked on Uprising. They are proud of it. Get over it.

            Based on your logic, the Duckhunt Dog shouldn’t even exist, since he hasn’t been relevant for more than 20 years. Are you going to claim that Duckhunt is overrepped too? Just let it go. Sakurai made the decisions that he thought were best, and many people are very, very pleased with those decisions. If you take away Black Pitt, Dr Mario, Lucina, Smash Bros on 3DS still has 46 characters plus 3 different Mii character styles, which still brings the total to 49 characters. That’s an impressive roster number, plus the 3 clones, and you’ve got a 52-character roster. I’m very happy with it.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Kid Icarus is overrepped… for you.”

            Nope. If Zelda and Pokemon get five reps, then only series that are significantly big enough should be getting three, like Kirby (and Metroid but that’s not gonna happen)

            “Clones aren’t as bad as you and numerous others keep making them out to be.”

            How dare people support creative and unique characters over copypaste!

            “And again, Kid Icarus is well represented because Sakurai and his team worked on Uprising.”

            READ: Bias. Are you gonna insist it’s okay when Sakurai makes the next Kid Icarus game and gives the series another two newcomers in Smash 5?

            “Get over it.”

            People like you who sit there and accept everything are why this crap continues to happen.

            “Based on your logic, the Duckhunt Dog shouldn’t even exist, since he hasn’t been relevant for more than 20 years. Are you going to claim that Duckhunt is overrepped too?”

            I love your failure at interpreting logic of people you don’t agree with. One character from one game is not overepping. Single-rep series are a thing, y’know.

          • kthanxyousuck

            Why is it that because some people simply don’t care about clones we have to be “people who sit and accept everything.”

            Some things simply don’t bother people.

          • MagcargoMan

            There’s a difference between being neutral and going out of your way to chastise people who don’t like something.

            If it truly didn’t bother him he wouldn’t feel the need to have a go at people who didn’t like them, since he couldn’t care about the matter.

          • LordDisco

            Kid Icarus is an older franchise than both Kirby and Metroid. Not only that, but Kid Icarus has a newer game than Metroid at the moment, making it more relevant, especially with good worldwide sales for Uprising (1.2 million units). Kirby is already well represented with its 3 best characters; Kirby, Dedede, and MetaKnight. Who else is worthy from the franchise? Metroid is still the one people moan about the most, because “Ridley, Ridley, Ridley”. Sadly, and what most people can’t comprehend, but Metroid is a hurting franchise right now. The only character that has real relevance is Samus because of her nostalgic value.

            If Sakurai is going to make the next Kid Icarus and it does well, then sure, why not add another character or two to Smash 5? But here’s a reality check for you: Sakurai’s health is getting worse and worse, so he’s probably not going to be working as heavily as he has the past few years. I’m afraid that this might be his last Smash Bros. He’s human, after all. Something you obviously don’t care about, because you are too busy hating on his decisions instead of enjoying what he made.

            “People like you who sit there and accept everything are why this crap continues to happen.”

            Okay. This bothers me because of two reasons: 1) People like me are the reason for what exactly? And 2) What crap are you talking about? Is the new Smash Bros a bad game? No. It absolutely isn’t. But here’s the honest question: Do YOU like Smash Bros for the 3DS? If not, that’s totally fine, because that’s your opinion. But if you are trying to degrade other people’s opinions because you want everyone to become the same Negative Nancy that you are, well, you lack any form of respect. If Smash Bros was unplayable, I’d understand your complaints. If Smash Bros was plagued with DLC characters and levels, I’d understand your complaints. If Smash Bros looked like it had no heart or love put into it, I’d understand your complaints. But none of that applies. You are literally complaining about a lack of certain characters and the pseudo-clones that currently exist, and you are judging the game and the developer for such petty things.

            This conversation is over. You are ungrateful, rude, and disrespectful. No need to give you any more time.

          • Thomas_NE

            “Kid Icarus is an older franchise than […] Metroid”

            No, it’s not. They’re the exact same age and were developed in tandem.

          • LordDisco

            My apologies. You are correct about Metroid. Despite, Kid Icarus is still more relevant than Metroid at the moment, whether people want to admit that or not. I absolutely love the Metroid series, but it hasn’t really been relevant since the first Prime game. Primes 2 and 3 basically rode on the coattails of the first game and never lived up to the same level (Not that Prime 2 and 3 were bad games. Quite the contrary. Despite, sales were significantly lower than the first game.).

            Other M sold decently, but its reputation and horrific control scheme has made it one of the most forgettable games in Nintendo’s history. Kid Icarus not only sold well, but it revived a series most people thought was dead, and Uprising turned out to be a pretty good game.

            My main point to the other guy was that Kid Icarus is more relevant than Metroid at the moment, and since Sakurai worked on Uprising, it only makes sense for it to have more representation in Smash Bros… also made by Sakurai.

          • MagcargoMan

            “My apologies. You are correct about Metroid”

            So when someone else points out a flaw in your argument you actually acknowledge it, but when I do you just ignore me and talk about other stuff in my post?

          • LordDisco

            No. There’s no “someone else”, because you haven’t proven jack crap. You’ve been arguing objectively the entire time and making it sound like your opinion is a sound argument. All I’ve been doing for you is playing devil’s advocate and saying that your opinion is not absolute.

            This other person presented factual evidence to my incorrect statement. I commended him/her for it, because I don’t mind admitting I am wrong.

            However, with you, I’m definitely not going to admit you’re right about anything, because again, it’s all opinion. I think Smash Bros on 3DS is a great game, I love just about every character included, I’m enjoying every single game mode, and yes, I LOVE CLONES. Anything you say or argue is not going to change my opinion, because I’ve already put over 30 hours into Smash Bros and I’ve enjoyed every second of it.

            All of your “facts” are anything but factual. Get off your high horse and just accept that people think differently than you. Just because you think Smash Bros isn’t a good game doesn’t mean it can’t be. It’s that simple.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Just because you think Smash Bros isn’t a good game doesn’t mean it can’t be. ”

            Are… are you stupid? Did you even bother to read that other comment I posted yesterday where I answered you question about what I thought about Smash 4 (I’m guessing you didn’t because you didn’t even respond to it)? Wow, are you really that defensive about clones that you think someone who doesn’t like them thinks Smash is bad? Wow…

            “because I don’t mind admitting I am wrong.”

            Then how come it took like three separate posts for you to even acknowledge your flawed “You hate clones because you wanted another character” fallacy?

            “No. There’s no “someone else”, because you haven’t proven jack crap”

            I haven’t proven how you use fallacies like “By your logic, Duck Hunt Duo shouldn’t be in”, which you fail to address because you can’t acknowledge any time you make a fallacy.

            “Get off your high horse and just accept that people think differently than you.”

            The hypocrisy here is astounding.

          • LordDisco

            “The hypocrisy here is astounding.”

            There is NOTHING hypocritical about me not caring about your opinion. We think differently, and that’s perfectly fine. My argument has always been simply that your opinion is not fact. Everyone thinks differently, and I’ve only ever been defending the clones because I’m tired of the vocal majority being the complainers. Simply put, I love the clones, and I always have. I find nothing wrong with them, they’re fun to use, and again, they provide just enough difference to their counterpart that it makes battles between the two more entertaining for me, especially Pitt VS Black Pitt in the new one.

            And the funny thing about you constantly trying to bring up my Duck Hunt comparison is that you keep calling it a fallacy, as if I believe it. I don’t. I used the comparison to show how ridiculous your clone argument was (Particularly the Black Pitt one). If you are calling my fake argument a “fallacy” then you are only helping further argue that your argument is in vain.

            “Then how come it took like three separate posts for you to even
            acknowledge your flawed ‘You hate clones because you wanted another character’ fallacy?”

            Okay. Do you even know what fallacy means? Because both times you’ve used it are wildly incorrect. How about we call it what it actually is; a mistaken statement. The first part of the statement is blatantly true, because you can’t stop saying how much you hate clones. The second part was my mistake, and I own up to it. That doesn’t make the statement a “fallacy”, because the statement is half-true and was only easy to assume the latter part (Honest mistake). On top of that, it wasn’t my argument. My argument from the beginning was been defending the clones and defending Sakurai’s choices. My opinion has and never will be absolute, but it was basis for an argument, because again, I was tired of this argument being so one-sided.

            And to be a man of my word, I apologize for making another mistake. I think it’s because I read your response incorrectly. My question originally was “is the game actually bad?”, and you responded with “It is good.” I think I just read it quickly and mistakenly read it as simply “It is [bad]”, since my question was asking if it was bad, not good.

            Look, this discussion is going nowhere, and I’m honestly tired of it. Go ahead and respond, but I’m probably not going to reply back. Good day.

          • MagcargoMan

            Look, your probably gonna ignore this, but just listen. The Duck Hunt statement is wrong because one notable game is enough to warrant a character. Ice Climbers, Shulk, Duck Hunt Duo. It’s perfectly reasonable. What are we supposed to wait for the next Ice Climber or Duck Hunt game to be made before they get added?

            Kid Icarus has three characters. Keep in mind that:

            a)Donkey Kong, a series that got revived with two huge games (Returns and Tropical Freeze) not only gets no newcomers, no Assist Trophies, no new items, but doesn’t even get a new stage; just Jungle Japes from Melee, which already returned as a stage in Brawl.

            b)Metroid, a series that has been around since the same year as KI, but has three times as many games, yet like DK, only has a returning Melee stage in the 3DS version and no new items.

            Uprising certainly entitled Kid Icarus to some new content. Palutena was a deserving and good choice. X Bomb and a few other items are nice too. But a third rep when bigger franchises have less, and EIGHTEEN Smash Run enemies when even Mario, Nintendo’s flagship franchise, has less enemies, is just plain favouritism and bias.

            Can you see where the logic is coming from here? Can you see why a three game series that Sakurai revived gets more content than series that have over 10 games get less than half as much is not fair?

            “Everyone thinks differently, and I’ve only ever been defending the clones because I’m tired of the vocal majority being the complainers.”

            And I’m tired of clones.

            It’s a majority for a very good reason.

          • Santoryu02

            Didn’t Sakurai say that they already had a lot of the models from Kid Icarus Uprising, so that’s why they used a lot of the enemies? Sure I know that Kid Icarus was 3d, and this is 2d, but I think that they can transition okay. As the Director, Sakurai has the right to put things from the games he worked on in smash. I mean, he worked on Kirby, and he worked on Kid Icarus, so there’s more Kirby content and there’s more Kid Icarus content. Subspace/ Smash Run is essentially a Kirby platformer with Smash controls. I may not like the fact that some series are under represented, but the game wouldn’t exist without Sakurai taking the helm. Let him do what he wants. He tries to appeal to as much people as possible. Although reusing levels again seems lazy, I hope that’s only because the Wii u version will have better levels.

          • MagcargoMan

            Yes, but even taking model importing into account, eighteen enemies is absurd. Around six to eight would have been fine.

            And with the exception of the Kirby characters taking big roles in Subspace Emmisary, there was never a strong overrepresentation of Kirby. Heck, Kirby was underrepped roster-wise in Melee.

          • Santoryu02

            The amount of Kid Icarus items added is a lot too. I thought it was weird, but I kinda liked Kid Icarus Uprising, so I just shrugged it off. I love Daybreak.

            I made the Kirby argument when brawl came out, when we got Dedede and Metaknight. But neither were clones, so it was ok back then.

          • MagcargoMan

            Kirby had 17 games before Brawl came out. That was definitely enough to warrant being a three-rep series.

          • LordDisco

            You know what, the tone of this last reply was so smooth and seemingly positive that I want to re-engage in conversation. Thank you!

            Okay, I know exactly what you’re communicating about the one-off characters (Duck Hunt, Shulk, etc), but I just wanted to use the Duck Hunt one as an example because I find your next argument about Kid Icarus to be too harsh. I love all of the characters in Smash Bros 3DS (Besides Purin! I’ve never liked him/her. hahaha), so I am honestly content with Black Pitt’s entry. Here’s why plus why not for DK and Metroid:

            – Kid Icarus Uprising was a hit, which was a big surprise for both Sakurai and Nintendo, considering the franchise had been dormant for 21 years. Since Sakurai and Sora worked their butts off to revive an all-but-dead series, I can see how they can be very proud of the product and wanting to represent it as much as they can in Smash 3DS. Remember, this might possibly be Sakurai’s last Smash Bros, so he’s probably wanting to get as much of his prized product into Nintendo’s famed fighting game as he can (Immortalizing it, to a degree) . We don’t have to agree with his decision, but can you at least understand his desire to do so? If I were in his position, I would want Uprising to be heavily represented as well.

            – As much as I love Donkey Kong, especially the Country series, the characters aren’t very deep outside of DK and Diddy, in terms of fighters. Dixie would have been cool, honestly, but I’m sure she would have been very similar to Diddy. If Sakurai had a choice to have a DK clone or a Kid Icarus clone, no doubt he would choose Kid Icarus. The only other character that would have been cool from the DK series would have been King K Rool, but since he hasn’t been relevant since N64, I can see why Sakurai wouldn’t have chose him either. Funky and Crabby are cool characters, but I don’t think they would be good Smash Bros fighters.

            – Metroid is just a sad reality at the moment. It’s a hurting franchise that Nintendo desperately needs to save. Since Samus is literally the only real (And worthy) protagonist, Ridley is the only next option. And well, we know how that debate has been going on. haha.

            The argument about Kid Icarus getting so much content being “not fair” is again an objective argument, and its one that I personally don’t agree with. Fairness isn’t really an issue, I think, because of the reasons I gave for each franchise. Even if Sakurai was just being biased, it was his decision, and I am not offended by it at all, since I really enjoy the game and all of the characters (Except Purin! I hate him/her! hahaha).

            “It’s a majority for a very good reason.”

            I only have to comment on this, because it’s not a very good reason. The reason is because the vocal majority on the internet tend to be extremely negative, and the people who are perfectly fine with something don’t normally express it on the web. Smash Bros 3DS has already sold about 3 million units, and it currently has an 85% on Metacritic (87% from users). Those are stellar sales for a handheld product, and that’s a great Metacritic score, which means Smash Bros 3DS is both commercially and critically successful. Numbers that positive don’t mean that the majority is angry. It just means that people who are upset are the most vocal.

          • MagcargoMan

            Your welcome. I could have gotten that point across better earlier but the tone of the “By your logic” thing just made me too annoyed to make a calm response.

            Yeah, I never really care about Jigglypuff either. So many much more relevant Pokemon get shafted over her.

            I understand why Sakurai did it. I just don’t agree with it. It seems a little egotistical in a way. If it is his last Smash Bros then so be it, but if it isn’t I really hope he doesn’t do this again. It’s weird because he created Kirby, and with the exception of the Kirby characters stealing the spotlight in Subspace Emmisary, Kirby never got overrepped. In fact, he was underrepped in Melee.

            Maybe it doesn’t mean much, but in this game’s trophy for K Rool. it pretty much says he’s to DK what Bowser is to Mario. He may not have been in a DK platformer since DK64, but he is most certainly the main villian. He’d also be very unique, being a fast heavyweight who relies on projectiles.

            Metroid does have other options. They are one-shot characters rather than recurring, but Dark Pit is a one-shot character too. Sylux from Metroid Prime Hunters or Anthony from Other M are good candidates. Granted the Ridley fans will whine, but they still do as long as Ridley isn’t playable.

            There’s nothing wrong with being vocal. If people weren’t vocal about tripping, it would have returned in Smash 4. If people who are fine with something, they should express it instead of keeping quiet. What good is keeping quiet gonna do when the developers won’t be able to hear what people liked about their product. They’ll know their product sold well, but they won’t know why.

          • LordDisco

            Don’t get me wrong, King K Rool would be AWESOME, but again, he’s completely irrelevant at the moment. The past two DKC games didn’t include him at all, which was kind of a letdown for me, since I was looking forward to him battling Donkey Kong again. Sadly, I don’t quite agree with the DK and K Rool/Mario and Bowser comparison. Bowser is rarely-to-never absent in Super Mario games or Mario party-type games. He’s as staple as Mario, Luigi, and Peach. K Rool is definitely not a staple DK character, at least not now. Hopefully they’ll bring him back into the DKC lineup, and if so, I hope he’ll be included in the next Smash Bros.

            As for Metroid, Other M is best left in the closet. And sadly, Prime Hunters didn’t sell well at all, so Sylux would be a completely irrelevant character, especially since Hunters was a spinoff game of the Prime series. Honestly, no one else in the Metroid series holds a candle to the awesome bounty hunter.

            And I think it’s fine for Sakurai to be prideful. I wouldn’t call it egotistical without really knowing the situation, but Kid Icarus is clearly well-represented in SSB3DS. That is definitely Sakurai’s choosing. If this is his last Smash, then know the next one will see less Kid Icarus. If Sakurai does another Smash, who knows whether he’ll keep all the characters or not. And who knows whether or not we’ll be getting another Kid Icarus game. I wouldn’t be surprised, based on the success of Uprising.

            Lastly, I know what you’re saying about being vocal. I was just saying that the internet is normally the breeding ground for negative feedback. Look no further than a YouTube video to see all of the nasty, rude, racist, sexist, evil, etc comments people have to offer. Negative energy bothers me some times, so I do feel the need to speak up when I feel like people are being harsh.

            And I’m enjoying this conversation now. 🙂

          • MagcargoMan

            I don’t think being irrelevant matters when there’s not many more characters who are? There’s Dixie, Cranky and Funky. Well there’s other Kongs but they’re too minor. Jigglypuff is pretty irrelevant as a Pokemon rep. Sheik is a one-shot character, and she doesn’t even have the justification of being a transformation character with Zelda this time.

            I think importance is better than relevance. King K Rool is the villain of the original DKC trilogy, the DK Land trilogy, DK64, King of Swing, and Jungle Climber. He may have skipped the two most recent games, but he’s the villain of like 80% of the DK games. That has to count for something.

            Despite Other M’s reputation, Anthony Higgs is at least liked by fans. It’s too late to leave Other M in the closet when in Smash 4 it’s already the source of Samus/Zero Suit Samus’s design, the models for the Reo, Kihunter and Geemer Smash Run enemies, and the Pyrosphere stage.When Metroid gets it’s next game (hopefully), then Other M will be cast aside by Nintendo, like it should be.

          • LordDisco

            “I think importance is better than relevance.”

            Now this is a statement worth looking at, because what is important? Relevance is obviously, because it plays to memory. More recent means easier to remember, therefore by default making it more widely relevant. A good commercial example would be this; Fire Emblem Awakening and Kid Icarus Uprising have both sold well on the 3DS, over 1 million each. Since we are still currently in the 3DS generation, and these two games are still on the market, Nintendo might want them more represented in Smash Bros (Both games are heavily represented), because people who buy Smash Bros 3DS (Currently at about 3 million) might become interested in Fire Emblem Awakening and/or Kid Icarus Uprising. For sales reasons, representing a game that is more relevant and still available for potential sales would definitely be an important business decision. That way, Nintendo might earn sales from not just Smash Bros 3DS, but also from one of the heavily represented games. This method obviously wouldn’t apply to people like you and me, since we are invested in our 3DSs already, but it might work wonders on individuals that bought a 3DS specifically for Smash Bros.

            The importance I think you’re looking at is legacy. Your argument that K Rool not being in the game would be equivalent to Bowser not being in the game (At least, to a degree). I’m not totally disagreeing with this thinking, but I truly understand Nintendo’s thinking from a business perspective. Remember that Nintendo is trying hard to cater to three very different crowds: The long-term, nostalgic Nintendo fans, the casual fan, and the new fan. For a game like Smash Bros that spreads so wide across the array of Nintendo history, it’s wise to consider all 3 crowds of people and how to best attract each of them.

            Hardcore Nintendo fans are going to buy Smash Bros no matter what, so I’m sure Nintendo puts a lot more focus on how to reach out to the casual crowd and bring in a new crowd more. That’s a smart business decision. This decision-making might anger or irritate some hardcore fans, but it has the potential to increase Nintendo’s fanbase more.

            It’s too early to tell whether Smash Bros 3DS/Wii U was a smart business decision, but I think on the reputation side of things, Smash Bros for 3DS has been very well received by both critics and fans and I’m sure Nintendo sees that as good for business.

            Importance is key, but what exactly is important is a hard question to ask in the development process. You don’t want to think you are making an important decision and end up being irrelevant in the course. There has to be a smart balance, so that Nintendo can get the best of both worlds.

          • MagcargoMan

            I didn’t say not having K Rool is like not having Bowser. I was just saying that he is the most important DK villain, which is what Bowser is to Mario.

            Smash 4 added a lot of characters that casual gamers and new fans wouldn’t really know. Shulk, Duck Hunt Dog, Lucina, Robin . Heck, even Mega Man became obscure to casuals before Smash.

          • LordDisco

            I know you didn’t say not having K Rool is like not having Bowser, but we were talking about the villain comparison, especially since you brought up the trophy description from Smash Bros.

            “Smash 4 added a lot of characters that casual gamers and new fans
            wouldn’t really know. Shulk, Duck Hunt Dog, Lucina, Robin . Heck, even
            Mega Man became obscure to casuals before Smash.”

            I already explained why I think Nintendo added Lucina and Robin, but Shulk, Duck Hunt, and Mega Man were all clearly fan service. As someone who grew up during the NES/Famicom generation, Mega Man was just about the sole reason for my purchase, as that franchise was/is my favorite of all time. Nintendo and Sakurai had literally won my purchase by just showing one character, and that is exactly how they catered to the long-term fan. But again, they had to cater to newcomers as well, and I think they did a really good job of that. It’s all just a matter of perspective.

            Either way, Smash for 3DS is still a good game with a ton of content, and I think between it and the Wii U, it will make a ton of money. And maybe in the next Smash, whenever that will be, we’ll see some more fun surprises like Mega Man, Shulk, Duck Hunt, and Koopa Jr.

          • MagcargoMan

            Very well then.

            Nice discussing with you. Farewell.

          • BlueSunStudios

            Isn’t everyone biased?

          • MagcargoMan

            Yes, but there is a HUGE amount of it in this game towards Uprising.

          • BlueSunStudios

            And your point is?

          • MagcargoMan

            It got way more than it deserves.

          • BlueSunStudios

            And is that an undeniably objective fact?

          • MagcargoMan

            Considering it’s a small series with three games while bigger franchises that have triple the amount of games get about a third as much content, YES.

          • BlueSunStudios

            It seems we both have differing understandings of the meaning of “objective” and whether Kid Icarus: Uprising doesn’t deserve the amount of content representation in DS, but I’ll simply leave you to your own then.

          • MagcargoMan

            Looks like we have someone in denial here. Tell me more about why Kid Icarus deserves more reps, items and enemies then game series three times bigger than it.

          • BlueSunStudios

            I see this as Kid Icarus getting more publicity through SBB to increase its popularity. Sounds to me that you don’t care for the smaller franchises.

          • MagcargoMan

            Nice strawman. I do care about smaller frachises, but I also care about fair representation.

            Dark Pit is unnecessary, but Palutena is a great choice. If Kid Icarus only had two characters like it deserves, it would still have a newcomer.

            So by your logic, Palutena, one new stage in both versions, three or four items, and five to six enemies isn’t enough to show publicity? Instead you think it needs 3 characters and 18 Smash Run enemies?

          • BlueSunStudios

            Then by your logic Mario doesn’t need all of the characters and enemies it already has.

          • MagcargoMan

            You fail logic. Franchises should be repped on how big they are. Mario is the biggest franchise, therefore he gets the most stuff. Honestly do you even think before you say these things?

          • BlueSunStudios

            At this point it’s clear we have different concepts of what is fair-representation. Again, I’ll leave you to your own.

          • MagcargoMan

            No, frachises need to earn their keep. If Kid Icarus is to warrant three characters instead of two, he needs a couple more games.

          • BlueSunStudios

            So the amount a game has should determine how many reps it gets? Regardless if that franchise is popular or not to the demographic that Sakurai is primarily catering to?

          • MagcargoMan

            “not to the demographic that Sakurai is primarily catering to?”

            What, you mean Sakurai catering to himself with his Kid Icarus Uprising bias?

          • BlueSunStudios

            “What, you mean Sakurai catering to himself with his Kid Icarus Uprising bias?”

          • MagcargoMan

            Yes that’s what I said. Why quote it and not say anything?

          • BlueSunStudios

            “Why quote it and not say anything?”

            Because I wasn’t finished when I accidentally posted it from my tablet that has a frequency of acting up? Did you consider that like the smart person you are, and did you honestly think that I wouldn’t follow it up?

            You keep saying that Sakurai is biased. Yes, this does look like bias and I’d be committing Tu Quoque if I called you out for condemning him for a bias when you answered my earlier question that everyone has one (which would include me and you since you said yes).

          • MagcargoMan

            “Because I wasn’t finished when I accidentally posted it from my tablet that has a frequency of acting up? Did you consider that like the smart person you are”

            Yeah, I’m so dumb for not using my psychic powers to know you were using a tablet. Logic!

            The point is there’s a difference between a mild natural bias and a blatantly obvious favouritism.

          • BlueSunStudios

            Don’t use that “I’m not psychic” excuse; you do not need to be a psychic to make a guess that the comment was unfinished and posted by accident just by looking at it, tablet or not notwithstanding. I only said that I used my tablet to clarify why that mistake happened; I didn’t call your intelligence into question over how you could not have possibly known that I was using a tablet (I wouldn’t have expected you to guess that anyways), I called your jntelligence into question that you did not seem to at least guess that the comment was unfinished, seeing as how you picked apart nearly everything I said on this topic and countered various things I said yet didn’t point out this fairly obvious mistake.

          • BlueSunStudios

            And there goes the accidental posting again.

          • MagcargoMan

            Don’t spout some BS just because you stuffed up a comment.

            Anyway this is going nowhere. Now I’m gonna go back to your original statement. “At this point it’s clear we have different concepts of what is fair-representation.”

            And yet, even by your version of fair representation, you don’t seem to care that Donkey Kong and Metroid got shafted while Kid Icarus got everything.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Kid Icarus is an older franchise than both Kirby and Metroid. ”

            Donkey Kong is an older franchise, and it has less characters. Bad argument is bad.

            “If Sakurai is going to make the next Kid Icarus and it does well, then sure, why not add another character or two to Smash 5?”

            Because it doesn’t deserve it. It’s not a big enough frachise.

            “Something you obviously don’t care about, because you are too busy hating on his decisions instead of enjoying what he made.”

            Something you don’t care about, considering you treat him like he is above all criticism.

            ” But if you are trying to degrade other people’s opinions because you want everyone to become the same Negative Nancy that you are, well, you lack any form of respect.”

            Says the guy trying degrade the opinion’s of anyone who isn’t praise everything Sakurai does.

            “You are literally complaining about a lack of certain characters”

            No, I’m not. You clone apologists keep using your fail argument of “Oh you just wanted another character in over them”. WRONG. Clones suck no matter who else gets in.

            “This conversation is over. You are ungrateful, rude, and disrespectful.”

            You have no right to call people rude and disrespectful when all you’ve done is made flawed fallacies to dismiss people who don’t suck up to clones.

            You’re a hypocrite. You say BS like “Based on your logic, the Duckhunt Dog shouldn’t even exist, since he hasn’t been relevant for more than 20 years. Are you going to claim that Duckhunt is overrepped too?” Take a look in the mirror after you get off your high horse.

            “No need to give you any more time.”

            READ: “This is my excuse to ignore any points that prove me wrong”

          • LordDisco

            “WRONG. Clones suck no matter who else gets in.”

            This is where you fail. Clones don’t suck. To you, maybe (Well, obviously), but to make a subjective, blanket statement is just absurd, and it’s why all of these clone-haters sound like entitled brats. I LIKE THE CLONES. I always have. Some of my favorite fights on Brawl were Fox VS Wolf VS Falco. Just because they are similar doesn’t mean they are identical, and that’s where you keep going off the deep end.

            Blanket statements, outside of scientific fact, are almost always false. You, sir, are wrong.

          • MagcargoMan

            >Makes a big deal about clones being bad is subjective

            >Yet calls anybody who doesn’t agree with you entitled brats

            Do you even objective?

            Also love how you failed to address anything in my posts that calls out your fallacies like your failed “Kid Icarus is an older franchise” justification, or that logicless “Based on your logic, the Duckhunt Dog shouldn’t even exist”.

          • LordDisco

            I told you. I’m done arguing with you, because you are so stuck in your one-way of thinking, and it’s just plain negative. I’ve never once said that Smash Bros was perfect, but I’m sick and tired of entitled fans thinking they deserve more. Because you’re not in control of the game’s development, people like you feel the need to complain about everything that you would have done “right” if you were in charge. You hammer in the idea that “Sakurai must listen to the fans”, but that’s false too. You say “Clones suck”, but that’s false too. You call people like me “Sakurai worshipers”, but that’s false too.

            You have name-called, used objective arguments for all of your justifying, and you only keep proving that you think you’re entitled. Would Smash Bros really be a better game without the 3 clones? Because that’s pretty much been your whole argument. In theory, if Smash Bros for 3DS stayed exactly the same but minus Dr Mario, Black Pitt, and Lucina, would that be the better Smash Bros game? I’m really curious if that’s what you’re thinking.

          • MagcargoMan

            “because you are so stuck in your one-way of thinking”

            Hypocrite. You’ve been one way thinking with your fallacy “HURR you only hate clones because you want someone else” when I don’t. It’s funny, You’ve said it at least twice. Couldn’t accept being wrong now, could we?

            “but I’m sick and tired of entitled fans thinking they deserve more.”

            How is NOT wanting something wanting more? Do you even logic?

            “Because you’re not in control of the game’s development, people like you feel the need to complain about everything that you would have done “right” if you were in charge.”

            Lolno, no wonder you get rightfully called a Sakurai apologist. Keep projecting those fallacies.

            “you only keep proving that you think you’re entitled. ”

            Keep spamming that buzzword. Not sucking up to something does not mean your precious buzzword.

            “Smash Bros for 3DS stayed exactly the same but minus Dr Mario, Black Pitt, and Lucina, would that be the better Smash Bros game? I’m really curious if that’s what you’re thinking.”

            Yes. Yes it would. Quality finish to the roster instead of three desperate attempts to bolster the roster number.

            And you’ew a hypocrite. You use BS fallacies and when I call them out you ignore them. How about you be objective and actually acknowledge them.

          • LordDisco

            *sigh* You say that their exclusion would make the quality of the game better, yet, if they are “clones”, like you say they are, then their coding is simple and wouldn’t interfere with the quality of the game AT ALL. Especially when you have Nintendo AND Namco Bandai working together on the game. Two giant and famous Japanese developers working on a game that Sakurai and his Sora team has always worked alone on. They had tons of manpower, been working on it for years, and actually, if you’ve been paying attention at all, have scrapped some characters so they could work on the quality of the game all the more. The exclusion would have literally done nothing to the game but subtract 3 character slots. Literally.

            And fine. I’ll change my argument. You just hate clones, which is also ridiculous. Why hate something that has been a part of the series pretty much the entirety of its existence? And they don’t “suck”, like you keep egging on. People like myself actually like them and have had great times with certain ones, and I honestly like all of the ones in Smash 4, especially Black Pitt. He’s just that much different than regular Pitt, and I enjoy him more than the regular one. Just like in Brawl, I loved Lucas more than Ness, and Ness is normally my favorite character. Some times these clones provide a different option for those who enjoy the characters they’re similar to. They don’t “suck” like you do quickly want to pass them as. They provide a slight variety to what is available. Making Black Pitt simply a skin for regular Pitt wouldn’t make him that much more exciting to play with. It would literally be a skin on top of a shell, like Koopa Jr and the Koopalings.

            And these three characters were not rushed in a desperate attempt to bolster the roster numbers. Where did you get that lie from? They were included for various reasons, and at the end of the day, they were chosen to stay while a couple others were cut, because (And I quote Sakurai here), “I wanted to keep the quality of the game high.”

          • MagcargoMan

            “*sigh* You say that their exclusion would make the quality of the game better, yet, if they are “clones”, like you say they are, then their coding is simple and wouldn’t interfere with the quality of the game AT ALL. ”

            *sigh* Ever heard of presentation and polish? Mario Kart 8’s roster may be the biggest, but when it has FIVE baby characters and Pink Gold Peach while more important characters were cut it’s clearly not the best roster.

            “They had tons of manpower, been working on it for years, and actually, if you’ve been paying attention at all, have scrapped some characters so they could work on the quality of the game all the more.”

            Pokemon Trainer and Ice Climbers were scrapped because the 3DS can’t handle transformation characters or a second AI partner, and Snake’ was probably licensing issues. Really, the only ones you could be right about are Lucas and Wolf.

            Also where have they said they were cut for quality. You’d think with the extra Namco help and the lack of a resource-intensive Subspace Emmisary they’d have more time?

            “You just hate clones, which is also ridiculous.”

            Could it be that someone doesn’t like something that I do? I know, I’ll call them ridiculous!

            “Why hate something that has been a part of the series pretty much the entirety of its existence?”

            Not hating something simply because “it’s been there from the start” is utterly stupid. “Why hate over-sexualised female game characters, it’s been a part of video games pretty much since its existence?” See how flawed that is?

            “Just like in Brawl, I loved Lucas more than Ness, and Ness is normally my favorite character.”

            Lucas was a semi-clone, not a clone. He had way more effort put into him, having only three normal moves (and the specials and Final Smash) that were clones of Ness’ moveset.

            Brawl was a step in the right direction; turning clones into semi-clones. But Smash 4 adding Melee-style clones is a big step back.

            “And these three characters were not rushed in a desperate attempt to bolster the roster numbers. Where did you get that lie from?”

            In the interview from ages ago where he talked about Robin, Chrom and Lucina, he said Lucina being playable instead of the planned alt was a last-minute decision.

            Now, this isn’t the same game, but in Melee, Sakurai said (in an old Famitsu article from 2002) he had the choice between making King Dedede or the six clones, and choose the latter so the roster could be bigger. Considering that decision is why Falcondorf is still a thing today, I would have much rathered he went with Dedede. Ganondorf probably would have been added in Brawl with a unique moveset anyway, having been in three Zelda games rather than one at that point (as in, Gerudo form, not Pig Ganon). Also, considering how four of those clones were cut in Brawl, it kinds just shows how “valuable” they truly were.

            So if the six Melee clones were added to pad the roster, why does the Smash 4 trio being the same seem so far-fetched, especially when they all weren’t even planned to be their own characters to begin with?

          • LordDisco

            “Lucas was a semi-clone, not a clone.”

            I think this discussion is finished with this quote right here. Your argument about “clones” has already been ridiculous, but this takes the cake. What justifies a semi-clone? Based on your logic, Ganondorf is absolutely a semi-clone, because he’s quite different than Falcon. Lucina is also a semi-clone, because she’s quite different than Marth. And whether you like it or not, as someone who plays as Black Pitt regularly, he is quite different than Pitt.

            Semi-clones, eh? Well, I guess there aren’t that many clones then. At this point, the only ones are Falco and Dr Mario.

            And you still haven’t told me whether Smash 4 is a good game or not. You’re too busy saying that minus the clones, it would be a better game, but is the game actually bad? I just don’t get your logic or your argument.

            I haven’t been arguing for Sakurai or being an apologist. I honestly don’t care. I’m just tired of people complaining about Smash characters. There’s always something. When normally, it’s people who wish “So-and-so” character was in the game, you surprise me even more by just hating clones. But after your semi-clone argument, I just can’t listen to you anymore.

          • MagcargoMan

            “And you still haven’t told me whether Smash 4 is a good game or not. You’re too busy saying that minus the clones, it would be a better game, but is the game actually bad?”

            It is. I’d say it’s own par with Brawl (my favourite Smash). It’s better in the gameplay department, but loses in other areas like (no Target Test, Event Match, Tourney mode) and Smash Run is fun but it has some big flaws like overpowered enemies that make Subspace Enemies look fair in comparison and an anti-climatic final battle after the run is done. It also loses points for cutting characters simply because Sakurai wanted the same roster on both versions. Would have preferred it if was just on Wii U.

            ” I just don’t get your logic or your argument.”

            He dislikes something I like, how illogical!

            “What justifies a semi-clone?”
            “But after your semi-clone argument, I just can’t listen to you anymore.”

            Wow you are ignorant. At least two-thirds of Lucas’ moveset is unique. That’s a notably large effort compared to Lucina who is just Marth without the sweetspot on the sword.

            Just because you disagree with me doesn’t mean you can just give up on making rational arguments.

            “Semi-clones, eh? Well, I guess there aren’t that many clones then. At this point, the only ones are Falco and Dr Mario.”

            And Dark Pit, Lucina, Ganondorf and Toon Link.

            “When normally, it’s people who wish “So-and-so” character was in the game, you surprise me even more by just hating clones. ”

            So people hurring and durring about what characters didn’t make it baffle you less then people who dislike lazy copy-pasted movesets?

          • Tylos

            Here’s the thing about those games selling and I’ll go along with your painting analogy as well being an artist myself:

            The first painting requires no input from the consumer and these paintings are usually some of the scariest if you want to sell because they are your vision, your idea and you hope others will like it but don’t know. Least consider all the first games in a franchise that first painting.

            After that first one though you must take many other things into account. The follow up for that particular painting has to take the consumer’s thoughts into account. Many franchises can suffer if they don’t. An example can be the second Zelda game being considered one of the worst due to its sudden departure. Sudden departure of what? There had only been one game before! But that one game was taken in by the audience and the consumers enjoyed it, so they bought the second and were disappointed. Thankfully nintendo realized: this didn’t work out so go back and hopefully people come back.
            And so they did. The same can be said of smash bros in a sense: the first game is when Sakurai was the freest: he could do what he wanted and did. But then every subsequent game had to follow guidelines preset by the past games and the consumers to remain relevant. He listens to fans. And changes the game accordingly.

            If you gain an audience from a successful painting you will continue targeting that audience, you can still innovate in small ways each time but the true innovation comes in the paintings you don’t make for them and these are side projects. In a perfect world each of these side projects becomes its own famous thing with a following. But this isn’t a perfect world and so even if one or two side projects succeed you try to keep the first one going.

            I’m ok with most of the character choices in the game. The only undesirable one being dark Pit in my opinion. Though I still have fun with him and use him. I wouldn’t be surprised if by the next game Dark Pit is removed. I also won’t be surprised when people start complaining that dark Pit should have remained and how whoever ends up being the new undesirable clone shouldn’t be in.

            The analogy doesn’t help you too much in this case but in my case the clone characters are the minor additions that can be considered extras and while it can alienate some fans it starts building up to a greater departure or understanding of the consumers and fan base.

          • Glommo

            The fundamental issue here is that you have no evidence that people did not enjoy Zelda II: Adventure of Link.

            If we go off of sales figures, Zelda II actually sold almost as much as A Link to the Past, one of the most critically acclaimed games ever.

            I know people that call Zelda II the inspiration for and direct prequel to the Demon/Dark Souls series, also a critically acclaimed series.

            Anyway, I agree with most of what you said and I find this sentence:

            I also won’t be surprised when people start complaining that dark Pit should have remained and how whoever ends up being the new undesirable clone shouldn’t be in.

            to be doubly true.

          • Tylos

            That is us looking back. At the time Zelda II: The adventure of link. Sold so well due to the popularity of the first game. I actually really like Zelda II and was rather dissapointed to see how many people dislike it on the Internet and out of it. (another case of who’s more vocal I’d guess). But I guess that wasn’t the greatest example… Here’s one I can use but fears using due to how the Internet is about it: Metroid Other M. A departure in story. A story directed by an older dev who has worked on Super Metroid and other Metroid games mind you, but people hate the story. The gameplay is not an issue as I’ve seen no one actually really complain about it (other than the search sections and the change from third to first person gameplay) and other departures are Sonic 06, Castlevania 64 (this case it is a transition but even these can fail as we have seen some games suffer when the gameplay goes from 2D to 3D:Sonic) but some can succeed to mixed reactions (Castlevania Lords of Shadow is like by some and hated by others. But it was a success the franchise needed for it to Finaly move from 2D to 3D for better or for worse.)

            In the painting analogy again it could be like making a successful painting, then trying to move from that into a new medium but failing while a friend does similarly and succeeds. But then in a few years you try again and this time it works out. What is the reason? The new technology? Or, more likely, the new audience? As time passes the audiences Chang how they think and new audiences become integrated as well. You may retain a part of your oldest fans but when the new change comes there’s a chance of losing their loyalty for that of the newer fans. Numbers and quality of fans also vary: you don’t want to lose loyal fans (no matter how few) for a lot of fickle fans who may abandon you at the drop of a hairpin. One must weight their options: risk vs reward. And sometimes we are forced to take a leap of faith. One that may either save us from approaching danger, or kill us in a quicker and sometimes more painful manner.

        • MagcargoMan

          And you’re supporting blind apologism.

          The painting analogy fails, because unless it was a commissioned painting, he is doing the painting for himself. Unless Sakurai is making Smash Bros fro himself and no-one else, than that’s a flimsy analogy.

          Shockingly enough, people pay for games. It’s almost as if games are made with the intention of people buying them so developers make money…

          • LordDisco

            Sakurai has always said he makes games that he enjoys, so yes, the painting analogy works. And painters want to make money, so don’t think artists don’t want to make a career out of their artwork. Game developers feel the same way. Some developers put their heart and soul into these games and work obscene hours just to deliver something to the world.

            Sakurai has been hospitalized numerous times from overworking, because he can’t get away from his projects. He loves them that much that he’s willing to put his own health at risk. Nintendo didn’t put a strict deadline on him. He just truly wanted to deliver.

            If you don’t like Smash Bros, that is totally fine. But why are people seriously judging the game for something silly, like the lack of a character? If people are going to be truly critical about the new Smash Bros, the roster is definitely not the problem. There are other issues, and those issues need to be touched up on, NOT the roster.

          • MagcargoMan

            Wow, you use a lot of fail logic. “He doesn’t like clones, clearly it’s because a character he wanted didn’t get in.”

            WRONG. I hate clones for their own merits. Stop using that “You just hate them because your favourite isn’t in the game” fallacy.

        • Guest

          Unforutnately, it isn’t reasonable to compare a game – one that you know he’s going to create another installment for – to a painting that gets framed or put up. Video games are created to be experienced by players unfortunately, while paintings are made to express… whatever the artist has in mind.

          Otherwise, what’s the point of making a game while trying to appeal to fans because he heard some of the characters were in demand? Or promoting a game? You don’t want to do any of these things unless you’re in it to tickle people’s likes.

          We are not brats, we are expressive individuals. Well — some of us, anyway. If Sakurai does not want criticism, he is free to openly say so, and thus keep whatever games he wants to himself. Because, honestly, if it puts out in the open, it’s bound to be picked on. Additionally, it’s a video game, and in order to continue receiving funding and all of that jazz, he has to have it sell. The more times Nintendo as a whole choose their WANTS over the fans’ WANTS, the more employees they’re going to lose. Isn’t that why Sakurai quit Nintendo in the first place?

          From what I hear, the man’s tired of making SB4 games as it is.

          • LordDisco

            It’s still his game, and that was my initial point. You don’t see Hideo Kojima going around asking the internet gaming community what he should do with Metal Gear Solid or its characters. He chooses to do what he wants on his own, and when the product is finished, people critique it for better or for worse, depending on the quality of the product.

            Sakurai has the same option, yet, the internet gaming community was so abusive of his decisions in SSB4, because Sakurai chose to do extra work by actually updating the world every week as to what was going to be in SSB4 (Something someone like Kojima decides not to do).

            And Nintendo isn’t choosing “their WANTS” over the “fans’ WANTS”. That’s part of the goofy fanboys’ problem. They think their wants are EVERYONE’S wants, and that’s where things get stupid. I am a hardcore gamer that has been playing Nintendo consoles for nearly 30 years, and I am completely content with everything Sakurai decided to put into Super Smash Bros for 3DS/Wii U. The games are full packages with loads upon loads of content, and to think otherwise is just plain selfish. The entitlement some gamers think they have is insane, and that’s part of why I argued against it in this thread from so long ago.

            It’s not the gamer’s choice. It’s the designer’s choice, and we as gamer’s should respect that, because ultimately, they are working their butts off for us. SSB4 has sold extremely well, so there’s no worry about “funding” for future games. And I hope you do realize that Nintendo is the first-party developer for Smash Bros, which means that the funds to develop come from within house.

    • Budgiecat

      lol. Nintendo fanboys also consists of equally heavy Sakurai defense force

      • Aura Shadow

        Lol yeah defense forces that know the actual truth and know what reading comprehension is. Let me put it simply. Option A) Game with 46 character, no clones. Option B) Game with 49 characters 3 of which are clones. This was the choice sakurai was met with and he chose to be nice and make the 3 clones to add to the game at no extra expense for him or the customer.

        • Budgiecat

          lol brown nosers

        • Budgiecat

          Option C) you SHAAAAAADAP

        • MagcargoMan

          Option A) Quality over Quantity, three cool alt costumes
          Option B) Quantity over Quality, three lame clones

          Hmm…

          • Tylos

            Overall it is a subjective matter. Your opinion is your own and how you see things is your right. But others will see it in different matters. Neither should push their opinions on others. You shouldn’t push yours on others and they shouldn’t push theirs onto you. But this is the internet.

            Options A) and B) By Aura Shadow is the neutral opinion and the A) and B) given by you are your slightly more negatively viewed opinions. Both are subjective. Neither is right nor wrong. Both of you would need to present proof to make your stances clear.

            How does having 3 extra clones lower the overall quality of the game exactly? Please elaborate.

            Many people enjoy the other characters. I know some who like Lucina, others who like Dr Mario and I don’t like Dark Pit.

          • MagcargoMan

            How is more characters being added for the sake of raising the roster count NOT quantity over quality?

            Sakurai even said that in Melee he could have had wither six clones or King Dedede and chose the clones because it meant a higher roster count. That’s exactly what quantity over quality is.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Aura Shadow is the neutral opinion” – Blindly being on the Sakurai Defense Force(tm) isn’t neutral.

          • MagcargoMan

            So I elaborated and yet you didn’t bother to respond?

            And how is Aura Shadow’s stance neutral when it’s just clone support? That ain’t neutral.

          • Lief Katano

            Your point here is that, by making them have a separate character slot, Lucina, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario are now lame and uncool.

            I’m sorry, what?

          • MagcargoMan

            Your point here is that, by making glorified alt costumes into desperate roster padding is not lame or uncool.

            I’m sorry, what?

          • Lief Katano

            By having a separate character slot, Lucina, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario can deviate from the source material. Being clones means that they don’t take time or effort from other, more fleshed out characters. Those guys were already programmed in. It isn’t roster padding as much as service to the fans who like those characters by promoting them to be a stand-alone character.

          • MagcargoMan

            BS, nobody asked for Dr Mario in Melee, and the only people who cared he came back in Smash 4 were people who wanted Mario’s old Down B, so even then, they only care for him for one move.

            And you can guarentee Dark Pit got in because Sakurai pimped out Uprising so much in this installment.

          • Lief Katano

            I do believe that Dark Pit is popular in Japan. Popularity in Japan decides who gets in. So.

            I’ll admit that my reasoning falls flat for Dr. Mario, but that one down special is, in fact, why he’s a separate character rather than an alt costume. And so people who liked Mario’s Melee moveset have a reason to like Dr. Mario and actually use him rather than use him as an alt maybe once then decide that beating up people as a doctor isn’t as funny as they thought it sounded.

          • MagcargoMan

            And that shows how much people truly care for Dr Mario; not at all. If Mario had his old Down B, nobody would care for Dr Mario except for Melee nostalgia-goggle wearer.

            No, Dr Mario is lazy. It’s like Pink Gold Peach in Mario Kart 8. Stupid characters.

          • Guest

            So, using a character’s model as a base to give him a totally different outfit in order to include him as a different character with his own slot, trophies, different animations, different properties, slightly different stats and his own special ”clear” video is lazier than just replacing Mario’s Down-B ? Sorry, but there’s no logic in your words.

          • MagcargoMan

            So, giving a character some different clothes, making a single paragraph description for him, and fooling around with an already copied moveset is so hard?
            Sorry, but there’s no logic in your words.

          • Lief Katano

            But Mario doesn’t have his old down B, so that’s irrelevant.

            And Pink Gold Peach is a completely different level of lazy compared to Dr. Mario. She’s actually a palette swap in a different character slot. Dr. Mario, at least, required a bit more designing.

            Besides, Sakurai’s dessert analogy was supposed to mean that clones are there for people who want to play as them, but can easily be ignored by people who don’t.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Dr. Mario, at least, required a bit more designing.”

            A change of clothing and some pills. It’s stupid. It’d be like making Wireframe Mac his own character.

            It’s pretty clear what he meant was they weren’t intended (whichw as a good thing, should have kept it that way) and we should accept it simply because it’s free. If I order a steak at a restaurant and the come back with that and give me a free moldy bread roll as well, doesn’t mean I should accept the roll because it was free.

          • Lief Katano

            And porting the Luigi Tornado over to Mario’s moveset, and making sure all of the hitboxes work correctly.

            I was more going for “you don’t have to eat it/use them” rather than that. And some people do like the clone characters, like some people like the free dessert.

          • MagcargoMan

            “you don’t have to eat it/use them”

            Except I do, otherwise I can’t get their trophies for Classic and All-Star, which I need for 100% completion. There’s also challenges for beating certain modes like Home Run, 100 Man Smash and Smash Run with every character, and there will most likely be event matches where you have to use them.

            Also, the dessert analogy never worked because the dessert is new and different from the main course. A better analogy would be the main roster is a well-made sandwich, and the clones are a cheaper imitation of the main big sandwich.

          • Guest

            Dark Pit was among the most voted characters in the japanese poll, that’s why when they decided to add some extra clone characters with the little time they had left they decided to include him, in fact Dark Pit and Lucina were among the top 20 most wanted characters, because she’s the most popular FE:A waifu in japan, and Dr. Mario was requested too in japan but not as much, but he just made a lot of sense to include because that way we can have regular Mario and a Mario that plays like he used to.

  • BioDomeWithPaulyShore

    I agree that it’s a bargain buy. Every single aspect of this game is rushed, from the menus to the CSS, to the game modes. Why oh why did you have to split dev time in half and gimp both games?

    • sean

      it was not rushed

      • Maxo

        It sure looks like it, look at the time it took Brawl to come out compared to this game

        • ZeldaWiiUTakeMyLife

          wtf??? 6 fukin years? (sorry)

          • Jeremy Wayne Humble

            WOW! Are people really thinking this game was rushed? Really?!? Do people not know what he did for the development? How much work it actually takes to make to versions of the game? Or anything about game development?

            Seriously, on behalf of people who are in school for game design or actually developing games. If you don’t know then please just stop….

          • ZeldaWiiUTakeMyLife

            “But, I guess since a lot of them are children, it cannot be helped.”

            -Sakurai 2014

          • MagcargoMan

            Keep spamming that quote, apologist.

          • Alt

            What exactly are you trying to say? You’re saying that game development takes a lot of work. The fact that the two games require just as much work but had roughly three years of dev time goes AGAINST the point you’re trying to make. People are saying that development DOES take a lot of work, and that the game feels like it was rushed to be released in such a short time.

            I appreciate the game so much from a technical level (it’s amazing what they managed to make possible on the 3DS with its limitations) but it does definitely feel like it was rushed. There are so many questionable design choices and it seems implausible that none of them were due to rushing to get a version of the game out. Sakurai even said in the Miiverse update about Zero Suit Samus’s alternate costumes that they almost didn’t make it in the game due to time contraints. That is exactly the kind of problem that arises when a game (or any project) is being rushed to meet a deadline imposed by higher ups.

        • Glommo

          Using your logic every Zelda game before and after Ocarina of Time was rushed.

          Pack it up people.

          • Tylos

            Specially Majora’s Mask. YOOOO LOOK AT HOW THEY RUSHED THAT GAME!! It has the most character development to side characters, and more engaging stories for characters you wouldn’t normally care about! But it took them less than a year to make!! SOOOOO RUSHED.

          • Lone Hunta

            Majora’s Mask is my favorite Zelda game, so don’t get me wrong, but it was most definitely rushed. You know how there’s a 3-day clock? It was planned to be 7. That’s right, MM could have been more than twice as long as it was. There were only four dungeons, too. You think there would have been more if the game had been twice as long? Darn tootin. Oh, and then there’s the fact they had to reuse assets from OoT, as in blatantly copy-paste them. It’s amazing what Aonuma managed to accomplish with that game in the time allotted, but don’t ever kid yourself into thinking it wasn’t rushed.

          • Guest

            Well, originally there wasn’t going to be a sequel to OoT, but an expansion like the expansiot kit for F-zero X, but the team didn’t want to make just an expansion so Miyamoto challenged Aonuma to make a sequel in like one year, and the 7 days cycle was thought at first but it was meant to be possible with the N64 disk drive, the DD failed so the idea was scrapped and instead they made it a 3 day cycle because of N64 cartridges limitations, there wasn’t enough memory.

        • Nicolas Cage

          The game was hardly rushed. Brawls development started in 2005, about 3 years before it was released. Smash 3DS/Wii U was revealed to be in development 3 years ago, but could have easily been in development much longer. Please explain to me how that makes it rushed, especially when most of the game just took Brawl and modified it.

          • Talenua Dharaphop

            brawl have 39 character in total, ssb4 have 51(including all 3 mii fighter)3 custom special move set for each move and wii U version, the character are recreated (not redesigned) from scratch to be fitted into the new engine, and are created within the same amount of time of brawl, note that character are harder to create than the stage and the rest of the content, please tel me about how much time constrain they have to finish the game.

          • Nicolas Cage

            You can’t just look at the characters and stages to determine how much it takes to develop a game. You also have to take into account how much time they actually put into working on it, how many people worked on it, etc. They had plenty of time.

          • Talenua Dharaphop

            true, but in the end, Sakurai himself still have to supervise all those character that were create, and there’s time constaint

          • Scorpio926

            You really don’t get it, do you? Sakurai put in so much time to make this game happen. Did you know that during development, Sakurai almost always stayed overtime and worked weekends? Did you know that the team who worked on this game is a LOT bigger than the one that worked on Brawl? Did you know that the game wasn’t planned on release until it was actually finished? I think the reason the game feels “rushed” to you is because it’s on the freaking 3DS. a system that can barely handle Smash, but Sakurai put in so much time and effort to make it work. Obviously some things had to be sacrificed to get the game to work right. Stop feeling entitled and understand what actually went into the development of this game. Then, and only then, can you whine about it being “rushed”.

          • Budgiecat

            working overtime and on weekends is common for Japanese. Ask Platnum games…

          • Talenua Dharaphop

            dude, I’m not whining, I’m happy with my 3ds version and appreciate sakurai effort to develop the game. I’m may be a little disappoint with the lack of content, and Lucas inclusion, but I can forgive that. It is not sakurai fault if the game is rushed,and I’d gladly wait another year if the game will offer more content and character. Sadly, I heard that the executive told him to finish the game in time and some of the character have been cut because of that.
            and forgive me, I didn’t get you until now, I though you were whining about sakurai being lazy, but actually you were appreciating him for his effort

          • Scorpio926

            I’m sorry, I’m just so tired of hearing people complain about this game. You don’t know how many people I’ve seen freak out about how clones are “stealing spots from their favorite character” and all that. I guess I just read your post and thought you were complaining about the game. So, sorry about that. And, yea, they definitely had a lot to do for this game, but they did have a much bigger team this time around, so that helped. And, you need to remember, the 3DS version probably seems rushed because there is so much content that Sakurai just couldn’t physically put into the game due to limitations. I’m sure the Wii U version won’t feel rushed.
            Also, I had no idea that an executive told Sakurai he had a deadline. That really stinks 🙁

          • Alt

            We know for a fact that the game didn’t start development until Sakurai finished development with Kid Icarus: Uprising (JP Release: March 22nd, 2012.) While he obviously started before Uprising was released, that’s hardly the being “in development much longer” than three years.

            Additionally, we’re talking about development time for two complete games with unique features. That means they had to make a console version of the game and a handheld version, with the handheld being held back as little as humanly possible. That they could make a version of Smash Bros. that plays so well on a 3DS with its limitations is an amazing feat, but that isn’t something you can just do overnight while co-developing the console version. The amount of optimization and changes needed would take a lot more time consuming than you seem to think. E.g. we know that the Ice Climbers were planned for the game but were ultimately cut because they did not work well on the 3DS.

            To say that they couldn’t be rushed by making two games like Smash 3DS and Smash Wii U in a three year period (max) is a bit of a far-fetched claim to make.

          • MagcargoMan

            >Please explain to me how that makes it rushed
            >most of the game just took Brawl and modified it.

            Do you realise you’ve pretty much just disproved yourself right here?

    • Glommo

      Sakurai: “Have you ever made a game?”

      • MagcargoMan

        Apologist: “Don’t criticise unless you make something”

        Guess Roger Ebert was a cardinal sinner for not making movies…

      • Tylos

        Actually that quote is kind of out of context. He said that in a different situation relating to a sort of arrogant “fan” who asked if he could test the game and tell Sakurai what was wrong with it and how to change it and balance it. Despite said “fan” not knowing about game development. It is quite the different situation as people arguing about clone characters.

    • Aura Shadow

      I cant tell if you’re joking or not….Give me one part of the game that seems rushed? If you’re upset about the menus or lack of game modes or whatever I’m pretty sure that has to do with the lack of content you can put on the 3DS. If you want fancy stuff like that, wait for the wii u version.

  • Chako

    This alone proves to me that Sakurai shouldn’t be in charge of Smash anymore, at least from a directors standpoint. This passive aggressive mentality he has with the fans is really unnecessary, I really hope nobody just soaks in to his behavior.

    Smash 3DS is a nice game, but many flaws are still apparent from previous entries of the series. Many legitimate complaint from Brawl are still here, yet he uses a faulty food analogy to tell his fans off. Also even if the game is a “bargain” he shouldn’t have to announce it, I don’t think it’s very respectful. I certainly hope we don’t hear anymore behavior like this when the Wii U version.

    • Spookoyo

      He uses a food analogy to make the confused fans understand that they got more than what they planned to give them. This is the exact reason why Sakurai should be in charge of smash, because he works hard to give us the best game he can give us with the funds he gets.

      • Chako

        There are many characters that break some of the rules to Sakurai’s alt character analogy. Character like Koopalings, Male Wii Fit Trainer, and Alph have slightly different looking size proportions compared to their actual hitbox size. At the very least it should have been considered to make some of the existing clone characters voiced alts instead no matter the move set changes.

        I don’t see many people praising Sakurai’s decision for including Dark Pit, it only just comes off as stroking more for what he wants rather than what the gamers want. Sure he is the director, but for a game made to celebrate all that is Nintendo he should at least take these things more into consideration.

        It’s just from a PR view Sakurai should choose his words carefully, because in this interview especially he comes off a little rude. I know you can’t please everyone, but you can’t always point your fingers and talk back especially when you are selling a big product. I just think the man should take a break from the directors chair and just supervise the development for the next Smash, I’m pretty sure it will do well.

        • Glommo

          They break the rules because they are rules you made up in fairy tale land.

          He explains in painstaking detail the process behind his choices to make it clear to you that they are choices.

          You not agreeing with those choices and then endlessly talking about how stupid they are, as indicated by this and many others’ posts are what he is calling “childish”.

          • MagcargoMan

            Wow, so even here you’ve decided to act smug towards other people with your “Fairy tale land” analogy? For someone who thinks he’s so clever you sure are repetitive and predictable.

        • Spookoyo

          Alternates/Clones: Sure some alternate costumes have different heights/aspects, there is absolutely no good reason to tweak every koopaling to give them their own slot. The Male/Female versions of characters should not have their own slots because they have basically the same power and name. Alph is essentially a clone of Olimar in Pikmin 3 if not a centimeter shorter, and since Olimar is essentially speechless in Smash, this works well for Alph which is most likely why there was no “need” to give him a slot to make him more of himself.

          Dark Pit: Was essentially the easiest clone to put in the game, all they did was model him a different weapon/such and gave him a reskinned version for a final smash. This made Dark Pit more into himself, which is what this game strives to do.

          This is an interview, To see exactly what he is thinking about this topic instead of holding his lips tight because children can’t handle what he is saying. He is not being rude at all he is just stating the facts. The fact that we’re writing paragraphs about this topic about free characters that took a day to put into this game is asinine enough.

          • MagcargoMan

            Dark Pit easily could have been an alternate costume. He only got in because of the massive bias for Kid Icarus Uprising in this game. If Sakurai didn’t direct Uprising, I guarantee you Dark Pit would not be in.

          • Spookoyo

            Yeah, because he wouldn’t of existed.

          • MagcargoMan

            What I meant was if Uprising was made, but by somebody else instead of Sakurai, he wouldn’t have gotten in.

            Dark Pit probably would have still became a thing in Uprising though, given how it had a lot of popularity in Brawl when it was just a palette swap.

          • Spookoyo

            Well Sakurai is the main reason why pit is in brawl so I don’t think he would neglect a significant change in the series by keeping the palette swap, but not changing the voice. Dark Pit would of been in regardless, whether he stayed as Pit’s color palette, became an alt costume character, or separate character as he is now.

            We could go on with “what-ifs” forever, but the fact of the matter is Dark Pit is in and isn’t going anywhere.

          • MagcargoMan

            “neglect a significant change in the series by keeping the palette swap, but not changing the voice.”

            I never said he couldn’t have a different voice. He could have one as an alt, like how the Koopalings and Male Wii Fit Trainer have different voices.

        • Agreed. My thoughts exactly.

        • Aura Shadow

          Sakurai didnt make those other alt costumes clones because he didnt feel they were different enough. He didnt feel they needed a different final smash or slightly different stats. That’s why they aren’t clones.
          In regards to the rude part. Sakurai has every right to be mad at fans who are just constantly complaining about something he was nice enough to add to the game. But it’s also possible it could just be a translation thing. It might have sounded less harsh in Japanese.

    • archarbiter

      “From a director’s standpoint” Why, are you a director?

    • ZeldaWiiUTakeMyLife

      This passive aggressive mentality fans have with sakurai is really unnecessary, I really hope nobody just soaks in to their behavior. (fixed)

      also, the creator should not be in charge of his own game???WOW
      I’m glad that he’s like that.

      • MagcargoMan

        >Implying Sakurai wasn’t being passive-aggressive…

        • ZeldaWiiUTakeMyLife

          He’s like that for a reason.

          • MagcargoMan

            Because he’s arrogant and can’t take criticism.

          • Tylos

            Like you no? And everyone else. Just how much criticism can someone take before they snap? Game Devs are also people, as are any people representing corporations or anything of the sort. They’re supposed to remain impartial, but how impartial can you remain when “fans” start directly targeting YOU and your work? You probably despise Hideki Kamiya.

          • MagcargoMan

            Don’t act like Sakurai is some flawless person who makes no bad decisions. Sakurai outright lies to fans (tells people transformations were cut so people can focus on one character, then waits for the game to come out and admits it was because of 3DS limitations), deliberately held back the Wii U version’s potential so the 3DS could compare, and commits lazy game design decisions like clone characters and padding.

            And no I don’t despise Kamiya. People deserve to get owned by his responses because they say stupid crap to him all the time, like when they whined about Bayonetta 2 being exclusive.

            So here’s the difference: Kamiya calls out people for their BS. People call out Sakurai for his BS.

          • MagcargoMan

            Another comment where you make a false accusation and don’t even bother to respond when I call it out.

    • Glommo

      You’re right. Instead, Sakurai should have to endure the harassment of millions of adults complaining to him like children on Christmas’ Eve every day because their favorite character from some obscure franchise that nobody has ever heard about didn’t get picked to be in Smash Bros.

      • MagcargoMan

        Or you know, some hate clones on their own merits and hate clones regardless of whether the characters they wanted or in or not?

        Gee, for someone apparently so clever, you sure don’t think about what you say.

    • Realm25

      Are you saying Sakurai’s comment is directed at you?

    • Velen (Not WoW)

      I wonder how many of the people who upvoted your post either did it cause they hate Sakurai no matter what, or only half-assed reading the article before blithely agreeing with you.

      • sexyboiy1 .

        We thumbed up because we aren’t pleased with the outcome of his work. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to form an opinion. A lot of his fans aren’t happy with what he’s made and his stab at the complainers

      • MagcargoMan

        Not all of us blindly praise Sakurai.

        • Velen (Not WoW)

          I’m don’t blindly praise him. I hate Dark Pit just as much as everyone else, but I also notice that it seems people don’t know how to read.

          • MagcargoMan

            Tell me then, what is wrong with Chako’s post?

          • Velen (Not WoW)

            What’s wrong with it is that shows little thought beyond the view of a consumer. Furthermore, he tries to connect the food analogy to complaints to Brawl. Which is nonsensical cause the statement in the article has nothing to do with Brawl at all.

            Basically he’s making assertions based on little more than what he sees and thinks, and doesn’t bother to try to look at things from other perspectives. Just like yourself.

          • MagcargoMan

            “What’s wrong with it is that shows little thought beyond the view of a consumer.”

            Shockingly enough, people pay for games and want to enjoy them like any other product. Unthinkable, I know.

            “Just like yourself.”

            Ow, the edge.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Basically he’s making assertions based on little more than what he sees and thinks, and doesn’t bother to try to look at things from other perspectives.”

            Sounds like Sakurai, given his response to criticism.

    • You couldn’t be more correct.

    • I appreciate his work as a director, but he does get bored and soured of things, and maybe it is time for him to retire from director of Smash. His attitude isn’t without legitimacy, but I don’t feel that reaction was entirely appropriate.

      It does feel like he’s brushing off legit complaints too (given he doesn’t bother tackling any and just sideswipes everyone).

  • Glommo

    “This alone proves to me that Sakurai should always be in charge of Smash, at least from a directors standpoint. This passive aggressive mentality he has with the fans is exactly what they deserve, I really hope everybody just soaks in to his behavior.

    Smash 3DS is a great game, but many great things are still apparent from previous entries of the series. Many whining complaints from Brawl are still here, and he uses a faulty food analogy to tell these morons off. Also even if the game is a “bargain” he shouldn’t have to announce it, but I guess he has to because those people wouldn’t understand otherwise. I certainly hope we hear lots more like this when the Wii U version launches.”

    • MagcargoMan

      And yet you denied on that other article that you weren’t an apologist…

  • Talenua Dharaphop

    note that sakurai said that he added in clone because he could afford it. basically he ran out of fund of whatever to create anymore non-clone, and clone are cheaper to create as they were made from pre-existing character.

    • Glommo

      You’re wrong.

      I know because I’m an armchair game director.

      • Talenua Dharaphop

        what do you mean armchair game director?

        • Glommo

          I’m sitting in my armchair not being a game director while talking smack about Sakurai and telling him how to do his job and telling him he’s lying.

          It’s a jab aimed at the whiners.

          • Talenua Dharaphop

            if that the case, then why am I wrong? I can’t understand what you mean entirely

          • Glommo

            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

          • MadCrain

            Lmao

          • MagcargoMan

            “It’s a jab aimed at people who aren’t blind sheep”

            *fixed for accuracy

        • MagcargoMan

          He means he blindly praises Sakurai.

    • Nicolas Cage

      Where did Sakurai say that? He didn’t run out of funding to make full non-clone characters, he ran out of time, essentially. And, actually, even with lack of time, that didn’t have an impact on adding in full characters since the majority of the roster, sans clones, was chosen at the beginning of development.

      • Talenua Dharaphop

        okay I can accept the fact that I was wrong about funding, but the restaurant anthology basically mean the non-clone are the only character that he can afford to offer and the clone is just a little extra he made because he can afford it. I’m not entirely sure what character were chosen at the beginning, but time DO affect the character choice.choosing Character may not use much time, but creating character DO use alot of time, as stated in “it took one year to create a smash bro character” ice climber may have made it to the 3ds version, but one of the reason they do not have is because the team could not afford to fix the bug in time, and they are not within the priority.

        • Nicolas Cage

          It actually wasn’t a bug that prevented Ice Climbers from being able to be on the 3DS. It had to do with hardware limitations. They had a hard time getting the game to work at a steady 60FPS and with 3D effect on, and having potentially 8 characters(4 people playing as Ice Climbers) would have been too much for the 3DS to handle at 30FPS.

          • Talenua Dharaphop

            it still not impossible to have them on the 3ds right? after all, the pikmin may have lagged the 3ds too, so they were set to 30 fps and was limited to 3 per number. only if the team have dedicated more time to solve the ice climber problem…

          • Nicolas Cage

            That’s a different story. The Pikmin don’t have a complex AI like the backup Ice Climber had. Whichever Ice Climber you would have as backup, it would basically be a level 9 CPU that mostly copied what you did, but could still fully function on its own, as long as the leader wasn’t dead. Pikmin are extremely simple AI.

          • ronin4life

            I don’t get this though: Rosalina and Luma work just fine and it is the same idea but more advanced.

          • Chris

            Luma is treated as an item, and acts as such. Even if Luma is knocked out, a new Luma spawns. This is something that simply couldn’t be done with the ice climbers, because Nana is powered by the CPU, whereas Luma is only used as an item; an extension of Rosalina’s powers.

          • ronin4life

            But from I have seen, Luma can move itself. Luma tries to follow. Luma must act when you do. These are all things Nana did less well than Luma, and Nana doesn’t even come back in new colors.

            WhatvI really want to know is how everyone would react if IC were free DLC down the road.

          • Chris

            Nope. Luma doesn’t move on its own. It can only move when you tell it to, by using certain attacks. It can only come back to you if you press neutral B. Otherwise it will just fall to its death.

            Ice Climbers physically cannot run on the 3DS. Now, if we’re talking New 3DS, I could see that. I could also see that as a, “hey, come buy a New 3DS. You’ll get Ice Climbers as new characters.”

  • thecritickitten

    I sympathize with his perspective. At the same time, he and his team were the ones who were implying that there’d be “no more clones” two years ago when the game was first announced. So….*shrug*

    It’s kind of a dumb thing to complain about, though.

    • Glommo

      Source?

    • MagcargoMan

      No it isn’t.

  • Justin Brock

    Sakurai just called the whiners out, DAYUM!

    • MagcargoMan

      Nope, Sakurai just showed his immaturity towards criticism.

  • Emufred

    I’m glad Sakurai called out on the whiners. Need to know their place.

    • MagcargoMan

      People who don’t support lazy padding =/= “Whinners”

  • I am Error.

    The roster is massive, a few clones are acceptable. We’ve come a long way from Mario + Luigi + Toad + another Toad from New Super Mario Bros Wii.

    • Glommo

      Good point, NSMBW had three clones out of four characters.

      If Sakurai is Satan, Miyamoto would surely be Taxiarch Archangel Michael.

      • MagcargoMan

        Four out of four. All characters in NSMBW play equally.

    • MagcargoMan

      Not comparable, it’s a platformer where all players have equal ability so nobody has an unfair advantage in co-op play.

  • Kenshin0011

    Ok. I get it Sakurai, I really do. Hear this Nintendo and Sakurai, you need to add DLC if you want to make this right!!!!

    • Chris

      He doesn’t have to do anything. It’s his game. If he wanted to cancel the Wii U version tomorrow, he could do it.

      • sexyboiy1 .

        and he should if he has this you are all children attitude. Cancel it and lose out on all the time and money you put in… oh thats right he won’t because he is a man concerned about his money. as he said

        Could you please leave it to me to select [characters] with man-hours and costs in mind?

        do what is best for your pockets Sakurai

        • Gold_Ultima

          It’s not his actual money… It’s Nintendo and Namco Bandai’s money. He’s provided a budget that he has to work within to make the game. He doesn’t get to pocket the extra money.

          • sexyboiy1 .

            makes sense

      • Guest

        Nah, he has a contract, he can’t just quit unless Nintendo wanted him to because it’s their money.

  • Edgarska

    It was worth it for that “children” jab.

    • MagcargoMan

      No.

  • Trust me, Sakurai. If you had given SSB4 Mario his former air down/A attack and the Mario Tornado as B/down, NO ONE would even remember Dr. Mario. Having Dr. Mario in the game is a stupid reminder that Mario still has the stupid FLUDD as down/B instead of the Mario Tornado.

    • Velen (Not WoW)

      -and you would be wrong. Since you don’t speak for everyone. Nice way to make an asshat of yourself.

      • Again, Dr. Mario could have EASILY been an alternate costume. Is that so hard to understand?

        • Velen (Not WoW)

          You actually want Dr.Mario to have the FLUDD? Are you out of your skull?

          • If Ganondorf can Falcon Punch, Dr. Mario can use FLUDD. But just for the record, I didn’t wanted the FLUDD attack to return in the first place.

          • MagcargoMan

            So when Mario puts on a doctor’s coat, it automatically makes it weird when he does the same thing?

        • Guest

          Same way as Luigi could have been easily an alternate for Mario…

      • MagcargoMan

        Nope. Stop defending Dr Mario.

        • Velen (Not WoW)

          Dr.Mario as a separate character is permissible under the fact he was given back the moveset he had in Melee rather than being a 1-1 Mario clone who awkwardly has the FLUDD for no reason.

          Dark Pit we could all do without.

          • MagcargoMan

            We can all do without all three of the clone trio. Dr Mario is Sakurai’s excuse to not fix Mario. He only has two moves that Mario doesn’t have, and those moves are ones Luigi already has.

          • Velen (Not WoW)

            Sakurai’s excuse to not fix Mario? Wow, heavy on conjecture today are we?

            So Dr.Mario shares two moves with Luigi. He was the same way in Melee when he and Mario had pretty much the same moveset. Unlike now. You have a point in there somewhere that isn’t completely biased?

          • MagcargoMan

            “Wow, heavy on conjecture today are we?”

            Not blindy following Sakurai =/= “Conjecture”

            “You have a point in there somewhere that isn’t completely biased?”

            You sure you aren’t being biased, Sakurai apologist?

            Dr Mario is awful. He is lazy. He exists to pad out the roster. The only people who actually cared that he was cut from Brawl are a minority.

          • MagcargoMan

            “He was the same way in Melee when he and Mario had pretty much the same moveset. Unlike now.”

            It’s funny because even with that weak excuse I bet you were supportive of him even in the Melee days.

          • Guest

            >”Dr Mario is Sakurai’s excuse to not fix Mario”
            >Dr Mario (or fixed Mario) is a character in the game

            dude… don’t forget to bring your logical reasoning with you when you post a comment.

          • MagcargoMan

            You learn to use logical reasoning. Dr Mario is not fixed Mario. If Dr Mario was fixed Mario he’d be Mario’s alt. Because MARIO is the one that isn’t fixed.

            There’s no valid reason to keep Mario deliberately bad as a justification for a lazy clone. Give Mario his tornado and down aerial back, give him Doc as an alt, makes the megavitamins a custom special, and be done with it.

          • Guest

            Well you’re the one that thinks Mario is bad when FLUDD is actually a very useful move for competitive matches but still people have Dr Mario as an option to play like the old Mario if they prefer it so it’s all good.
            You want Mario to have his Melee moves back. that’s your fixed Mario well it’s in as Dr Mario. you actually wanting Dr Mario to just be an alt and be gone with Mario’s current moveset to satisfy your own wishes is just plain selfish and narrow-minded thinking. Why deprive people of having more options and content in the game? Why not have both options to play as? just because you don’t want to? because you want to play as the old Mario but can’t stand to see him dressed as a Doctor? so then your answer is f*ck people I want my FLUDD-less Mario to be dressed as regular Mario so f*ck the other ones that play as him.

          • MagcargoMan

            “You want Mario to have his Melee moves back. that’s your fixed Mario well it’s in as Dr Mario.”

            So my fix is having him deliberately not fix Mario and dump the move on a completely underserving and unnecessary character? Just no. I might as well just play as Luigi to use Tornado then. He may not have all of Mario’s moves but at least he’s deserving to be in.

            “you actually wanting Dr Mario to just be an alt and be gone with Mario’s current moveset to satisfy your own wishes is just plain selfish and narrow-minded thinking.”

            No, the selfish people are the ones who can’t get over their stupid clone that nobody missed when he was cut in Brawl and think that it’s a good thing for Mario to be not be complete for the sake of having one extra character that, like Brawl, nobody would care if he wasn’t in.

            ” Why not have both options to play as?”

            Sure, let’s also add Striker Mario too. He has the same moves as Mario, but he shoots soccer balls instead of fire balls, and his kick attacks are slightly stronger. And Ice Mario, who is the same as Mario but his B special, Forward Smash and Final Smash have ice instead of Fire. Penguin Mario too, he’d be like Ice Mario but slower and has a slide move instead of a cape. Gotta have all these pointless characters because “lolOptions”.

            “so then your answer is f*ck people I want my FLUDD-less Mario to be dressed as regular Mario so f*ck the other ones that play as him.”

            My answer is don’t support lazy clones you apologist.

    • Glommo

      NO ONE*

      *May include people that like Dr. Mario or more generally people who aren’t stuck-up infants keen on classifying their view of the game as the righteous one.

      • Dr. Mario could have easily been an alternate costume, dumbass. Use your brain, for god’s sake!

        • Glommo

          You’re right, I am a dumbass for not whining constantly that my favorite video game character didn’t get the moves I wanted them to have in my fighting video game with just around fifty different characters.

          Truly you are the Neo of the Smash Bros. Matrix.

          • Sam Morin

            Stop being a pissant. He’s right he easily could have been an alt. It doesn’t matter anyway, though.

          • Glommo

            You’re right, I’m insignificant, as shown by you replying to me with an insult out of nowhere, and I am contemptible because I raise the point other people might actually like things you do not like.

            Clearly.

          • MagcargoMan

            He’s like is this all the comments. He has this aura of smugless around him and spouts complete psuedo-intellectual BS to sound clever. Ignore him. He’s not worth your time.

          • Sam Morin

            Most people arguing on the Internet are nowadays. Looking for big words they think people don’t know to sound clever, when all you have to do is open a dictionary. Thanks anyway, Magcargo, man.

          • MagcargoMan

            No problem.

          • You fail to understand that I am not the only one who complains about this. There are countless of Zelda and Smash Bros. fans who wish for the character to have a unique moveset.

            And I know there are other characters. I don’t even mind clones like Falco or Roy who don’t have moveset potential, but this is Gano we are talking about. His moveset potential is almost endless. And not only is he one of Nintendo’s most iconic villains but one of the most iconic villains in video games in general and he is treated in Smash Bros. as clone. It is unforgivable to treat such an iconic character in such a meaningless way.

          • Glommo

            Well if there are “countless fans” who wish for such things, I suppose you would have no problem proving that?

            While attempting to prove this, please keep in mind the sales figures for all the Smash games, since a word like “countless” would imply that at the very least we are talking about the majority of the fan base here, if not a large majority of said fan base.

            I’ll look forward to seeing such proof.

          • MagcargoMan

            >Claims in other article that he’s not a Falcondorf apologist
            >Continues to dismiss people who call out Falcondorf in most recent posts

          • Tylos

            Honestly in this case, Zelda/Smash Bros. Fans specifically? Yes. They’re mostly disappointed with his moveset.

            If you take into account how many fans of the different franchises are present in smash bros it can be divided into many factions like the Mario/Smash Bros., Zelda/Smash Bros., FE/Smash Bros., etc, etc. each fan base has different opinions and the Zelda/Smash Bros. Fan base is technically a minority (as is every other fanbase/Smash bros.) when put against the others all together. Overall a minority of smash bros fans are dissapointed in the moveset, a majority honestly couldn’t care less and remain indifferent and an even vaster minority like the moveset.

            Believe it or not there are smash bros fans who don’t know who Link and co. Are, just as there are those who don’t know who the FE chars are and so on. And even amongst those who know there are people who haven’t played a single game in the franchises.

          • MagcargoMan

            So do you have any facts, or do you just like to dismiss people who call out BS as a “vocal minority”?

            “Believe it or not there are smash bros fans who don’t know who Link and co. Are, just as there are those who don’t know who the FE chars are and so on. And even amongst those who know there are people who haven’t played a single game in the franchises.”

            And these are the last kind of people who should have a say on Ganondorf’s moveset.

          • Tylos

            Am I dismissing these people? So I’m dismissing myself I suppose. As a vocal minority (which I don’t recall mentioning in the specific message I wrote and you’re replying to.) I am dissapointed with the fact that Ganondorf still doesn’t have his own moveset.

            In the discussion I had I was merely comparing the size of the (quite large) Zelda fanbase to the (arguably larger) Smash Bros fanbase, which is made up of multiple different fanbases. There is of course an overlap between fanbases but I was discussing it as of the Zelda fanbase squared off against the other fanbases put together (most of which wouldn’t sympathize with the Ganondorf needs a moveset argument unless one of their characters suffers a similar issue) and how Zelda alone despite how large the fanbase is, ultimately results as a minority when pitted against the other fanbases which are overall quite indifferent.

            As a minority I suppose being vocal is the only way in which we can make ourselves heard and it is a great benefit that the other fanbases are merely indifferent because if they were actually against us then we’d be snuffed out quite easily.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Am I dismissing these people?”

            In your other post you used the term Vocal Minority to dismiss Dark Pit haters.

          • Tylos

            I sensed a “Ganondorf should have his own moveset” conversation and had to be here despite my lateness.

            Yes he needs a new moveset. I find it really saddening because I spent so much time unlocking the alt moves in hopes of finding something unique… And only one move used the sword. I don’t know how much Sakurai knew about HW before he made the characters but when I heard “we had to remake the characters from the ground up” it rekindled hope… Which was snuffed out.

            I know some people like how Ganondorf plays… But a compromise would have been to remake Ganondorf from the ground up as his own new character, trident and all and new design while keeping the clone Ganondorf as an extra since as Sakurai said: like the extra dessert.

            Ganondorf was clearly set to appear from the beginning so why not make him different? And keep old Clonendorf as the extra? Oh well what’s past is past… I still hope for DLC… Otherwise I’ll only Use GANONDORF when goofing around and using the side Spesial mid air to suicide kill everyone I can. That’s all I find fun about him.

          • Absolutely agree.

      • MagcargoMan

        “May include people that like Dr. Mario or more generally people who aren’t stuck-up infants keen on classifying their view of the game as the righteous one.”

        Oh the hypocrisy of Dr Mario fanboys…

    • UltimaLuminaire

      Do you even short hop down air shield pressure, bro? ZeRo on his stream even commented how amazing Mario’s down air is in this game. Pls. I have have high hopes for both Mario and Dr Mario in this game.

      • Did I said I didn’t like it. Cause it doesn’t seem that way, does it? I actually wouldn’t complain if Mario kept the Tornado as his aerial down/A (as it was done) and received a new down/B move.

        If you paid attention, I am actually complaining about the FLUDD, not so much the aerial down/A. But I use to make such sick combos with f-air + d-air + Tornado. I do miss it.

    • Guest

      “stupid FLUDD”

      Uh again, another fail guy who doesn’t know how to use it correctly.
      FLUDD IS BETTER THAN TORNADO, You cannot deny it.

      • Haahhahahahahah!! “FLUDD better than Tornado” What a joke!

        • ALOIYD

          Too much hatin’, huh?

      • MagcargoMan

        Uh again, another fail guy who doesn’t know how to use the tornado correctly. TORNADO IS BETTER THAN FLUDD, You cannot deny it.

        • ALOIYD

          I deny it 100%.
          I use tornado better than you, and i say, FLUDD is better than you, “Brawl Hater”.
          (P.S : Mario without FLUDD is a nerf, Dr.Mario exists.)

          • MagcargoMan

            “I use tornado better than you”

            I’m so glad how you can spout “facts” when you’ve never seen me play Smash Bros. Try again.

            “and i say, FLUDD is better than you, “Brawl Hater”.”

            I love Brawl, you freaking idiot.

            (P.S : Dr Mario should have never existed in Smash outside of an alt costume.)

          • ALOIYD

            Who says “Idiot” is “Idiot”, Try again.
            Also, let me end this by saying : MARIO WILL NEVER HAVE HIS TORNADO BACK.

          • MagcargoMan

            Wow, you have just proven how you can’t even acknowledge people pointing out your flawed arguments. Go away, useless troll.

          • ALOIYD

            It’s useless to troll me, son, As long you remember this :
            F.L.U.D.D is good, and if you say “FLUDD is bad”, You don’t know how to Mario.

            (P.S : If you’re going to counter it, i will perfer it as a failtry.)

          • MagcargoMan

            Typical ignorance. Just because you don’t agree me with doesn’t make me a troll. Try harder.

          • ALOIYD

            Try harder, moron,
            Trying to act as a child won’t work on me.
            Also, You don’t know anything, i am seeing you reply with stupidly, Any reply comes to me because i am wrong on this comment will be considered as a idiotic message.

            (P.S : I won’t respond, @magcargoman:disqus, Anything you say to me = reflects to you)

          • MagcargoMan

            “Anything you say to me = reflects to you”

            Wow, a “I am rubber you are glue” comeback? Who’s the real child here?

          • ALOIYD

            You.

  • RayLedgend

    Half the people here are just d*** riding lol. I don’t even dislike Smash 4, and while I do agree with Sakurai and several commenters that complaining about the fact that the clones are there is petty and childish, I think there’s a larger issue here. What people have noticed about Smash 4 is a serious undercurrent of laziness.

    Smash for 3DS has cut more content, not just characters, than any other Smash sequel, including modes that have been around for the whole series like Break the Targets. Gone are modes like coin battle, stamina battle, event matches, stage builder, any kind of story. Gone are several unique characters from the previous game as well.

    In addition, Smash for 3DS has added less content than any previous Smash sequel. Say what you want about Melee or Brawl, but those games added tons of new modes and features. Smash 4 has added a fraction of the content that those games did. Not only modes, but items, features, things like that. And what it did add, again, came at the cost of strikingly extensive cuts.

    Further, Smash 4 has the fewest changes to its underlying engine than any previous Smash sequel has. This is doubly disappointing to some since Brawl was the game the most people have wanted significant changes to in the first place. Add to that the fact that people have been experiencing lag issues with the game’s local multiplayer, a problem seemingly unique to Smash, and it feels like there’s some major laziness going on here, if not the game being completely rushed. Some may say the Wii U version might fix these issues, but then the 3DS version feels like a bit of a ripoff.

    Anyway, yeah, since there feels like laziness underlying the whole package, I can forgive people for feeling like Lucina, Dr. Mario and Dark Pit are just padding. I think Sakurai was needlessly disrespectful and abrasive to the fans who buy his games and make them the successes they are when he equates anyone who might have genuine criticism of his decisions to whiny children. No one should be above criticism. At the very least, can we agree that it’s a bad PR move?

    • Glommo

      Wall of text omitting crucial information about what could be perceived as counterpoints to the argument made starting off with a delicious logical fallacy of a “Everyone I don’t agree with is stupid!!!”

      Truly this is the epitome of the very thing Sakurai described.

      There is a certain serene beauty to it, honestly.

      • RayLedgend

        lol, dickbag. I never even close to said everyone who disagrees with me is stupid. I just noticed a lot of blind Sakurai defense in these comments, it had nothing to do with whether they agreed or not. Get out of here with that trash.

        What crucial information did I omit? I didn’t try to omit anything as you insinuate, but I might have missed things. If you have counterpoints, bring them up. I’m willing to have a discussion and be proven wrong.

        The thing of it is, I’m not even trying to complain or whine here. I like Smash 4 (EDIT: I even like the clones!), I was just playing some For Glory right now. All I was doing was trying to justify the other side. Maybe I’m blind, but I don’t see my comment as what Sakurai was describing.

        • Glommo

          “Half the people here are just d*** riding lol.”

          “lol, dickbag. I never even close to said everyone who disagrees with me is stupid.”

          You’re right. They’re just petty insults.

          Usually when try to make a point, you do this by presenting facts mixed in with some opinion. Not by omitting information and skewing the argument in your favor.

          Perhaps you might understand.

          Smash for 3DS has cut more content, not just characters, than any other Smash sequel

          I can do this too.

          “Smash for 3DS has added more modes, and characters, than any other Smash sequel.”

          See what I did there? That is basically your entire post. Both of those aren’t strictly wrong, they’re just lacking in a lot of important areas.

          You are confusing “what the fans want”, and “what I want” with quality. Which is exactly what Sakurai is talking about. You are whiny children that think you know better without actually having any sort of meaningful insight.

          I.e.:

          Further, Smash 4 has the fewest changes to its underlying engine than any previous Smash sequel has.

          “If I don’t get what I want the mechanics are bad!”

          In Sakurais own words: “Have you ever made a game?”

          The funniest part is I don’t even like the guy all that much. At least he knows to call BS out when he sees it.

          PS: Look up the definitions of “genuine” and “criticism” please.

          • RayLedgend

            Listen bud, you’re missing my point so badly here. You said: “You are confusing “what the fans want”, and “what I want” with quality.” But I’m not. I like Smash 4 and think it’s great. I have said several times now I’m not trying to call it a bad game, even though it isn’t everything I wanted. Same with this piece: “If I don’t get what I want the mechanics are bad!” But, buddy, I don’t even think the mechanics are bad. All I’m saying is that they haven’t been changed much compared with other entries and I can understand people viewing that as lazy. I never called it bad. I like Smash 4 a lot, and I’ve said that several times now, but you’re so desperate to tear me down that you’re ignoring that.

            Again, what information did I omit? As I already said, I wasn’t trying to omit anything. Again, you’re so dedicated to discrediting me that you’ll hold on to that argument despite the fact that I’ve already explained I wasn’t trying that.

            “Smash for 3DS has added more modes, and characters, than any other Smash sequel.” Yeah, except this is ‘strictly wrong.’ I mean, yeah, Smash 3DS added more new characters, but it simply didn’t add more new modes than the other sequels. Let’s compare: Melee had Coin Battle, Stamina Battle, Super Sudden Death, Adventure Mode, All-Star Mode, Home Run Contest, Multiman Smash, Tournament Mode, Event Matches, Trophies, several more items than Smash 3DS did. Brawl added Subspace, Boss Battles, The Trophy shooting game, Stage Builder, Replays, Snapshots, Special Brawl, That mode for five players where it makes people sit out, Stickers, Online play, later for fun, and Spectator mode, and that’s all off the top of my head. Smash for 3DS added For Glory, Smash Run, StreetSmash, Target Smash, Custom Moves and Trophy Rush. That’s 6 compared with Melee’s 8 and Brawl’s 9. The only reason I didn’t provide this list the first time around was my comment was already long enough.

            I am not whining or complaining to or anyone. Even though Smash isn’t exactly the game I hoped it would be, I’m satisfied with it, and in fact truly like it. My comment was simply to say I can see where the other side is coming from, and Sakurai reducing that entire side to whining children is a little too harsh.

          • MagcargoMan

            Ignore him, dude. He is one of the worst apologists I’ve ever seen. He just oozes an irritating smugness.

      • MagcargoMan

        Inane short paragraph about being an apologist and acting smug and dismissing valid criticism.

    • Will H. Wright

      Yeah I think the same. I like smash, 3DS is good, clones are annoying me but whatever, but more importantly, people have the right to say what they like/dislike, period, that doesn’t make them whiny kids, it’s from complains that you learn how to do better. Not EVERY complain, of course, some people say nonense, but still, you still have to listen to them when people PAY for your things.
      It’s as you say. No one is above criticism. And this really make it sounds like he think he is.

      • Gold_Ultima

        Nah, I think this is one of those times where it’s nonsense… He took lots of criticism about Brawl. He also took criticism from pro players during E3 and made changes to the game between E3 and release based on their feedback. He just doesn’t take criticism from people who don’t even understand what they are criticising.

        • MagcargoMan

          People also don’t understand what they blindly defend.

    • Gold_Ultima

      “Anyway, yeah, since there feels like laziness underlying the whole package”
      The man literally works so hard he cripples himself to get the game done, then gets called lazy…

      • RayLedgend

        Well to be fair, I tried to make sure I always said it felt like laziness, rather than accusing him of being lazy, though I may have slipped up here or there. I wanted to avoid directly accusing him of being lazy because even if you agree that the game is more bare bones, there could have been any number of factors involved, not the least of which being balancing development of both the 3DS and Wii U version simultaneously.

  • arkane9

    I don’t buy it.

    Clone characters are made to pad out a roster. But why would you need to pad out a roster which already has 48 characters, especially with characters that you originally could play as alternate costumes anyway?

    Something’s fishy. Sakurai is planning something. Something he has yet to reveal…

    • ALOIYD

      No doubt a new character, Beware.
      (even if it did release, Sakurai can simply update the game with a new character.)

    • ronin4life

      I’m left wondering how much Amiibos influenced development myself.

  • android138

    all the people complaining about smash sound like they havent even played the game. it is a masterpiece. get over it.

    • ronin4life

      I have played it. So far Palutena feels empty, Shulk and Pac-man shoe-horned in for promotions,
      Duck Hunt unasked for in light of others. Ganon, Dark Pit, Dr Mario and(perhaps less so in some ways)Lucina unecessary and Baby Bowser JR. Proof of all this with the clones.

      The clones are especially damming, since several original characters already exist that coukd be called upon from previous games too.

      You can’t please everyone, and shouldn’t expect to. And let’s not pretend that for all its grandness the roster is heavily padded and hit or missed at that.

      • Glommo

        It’s like you still haven’t read what he actually said.

        It’s fascinating.

        • ronin4life

          It’s like you didn’t read what I have said.

          He is self agrandizing and deifying himself while insulting others when Smash’s characters are far from perfect.

          Clones are gonna happen. But they don’t have to be crap, and he shouldn’t be spouting more crap to cover it up both after and even BEFORE the clones were made appearant.

          • Glommo

            How is he aggrandizing? This is from an interview in a Japanese gaming magazine, in which he essentially says two things:

            1. Character choices are choices.

            2. People keep complaining about their favorite characters/the characters that have been chosen.

            The clones aren’t “crap”, you simply think they are crap. All fine and dandy. Keep writing comments like you always do. Keep voicing your opinion.

            But don’t be surprised when the one who has to constantly hear the opinion of millions of whining babies calls them out on it.

            Now for why I said “It’s like you still haven’t read what he actually said.”, since you still don’t seem to understand.

            Sakurai’s comment is a comment on how the “clone” characters are extras. He clearly makes the distinction between clone characters and “full characters”. Because one of them takes extensive resources and the other doesn’t.

            The only thing you and others’ complaints are about are Sakurai’s character choices. They are your preference. It isn’t “damning” or “lazy”. It is “Boohoo” and “Wéééé”

          • ronin4life

            By crap I mean Crap character choices. Lucas and Wolf are sorely missed(not by me) and are gone. The chosen clones are themselves literal clones and would work as skins while others from less represented series are gone or reskins themselves. Why not make a Chrom Clone of Ike instead of Dr Mario?

            This also doesn’t apply at all to the “main” roster, where new characters could have been other characters. Why did we need another Mario character, was Palutena really necessary, and did anyone ask for Duck Hunt to be playable? This isn’t the same matter as Clones, but I am sure many are asking similar questions, and when they see some of these clones it exhasperates their feelings on this.

            And I will ADMIT it: I am also feel miffed specific characters *I* wanted not even considered, while all manner of others characters, clone or not, are in. I won’t deny the possibility I am unreasonable. And yet, that doesn’t make points I raise otherwise meritless, me a baby, or the roster perfect. Like I have said and many others have said, you can’t please everyone. But can’t it also be said that if THIS many people can be visibly unhappy, that perhaps the roster does have issues that shouldn’t just be summed up and tossed aside with a witty metaphor?

            I will also say that the roster could have potentially felt better of some clones stayed skins with no replacements, making the argument seem moot. But this also reveals how Sakurai overall could have misread anticipation and made some errors in his choices. And at the end of the day, he has proven these are HIS choices, despite the game being for everyone else as well. Of course there are going to be problems.

          • Glommo

            The problem with what you’re saying is the problem I’m underlining.

            Because *you* find Dr. Mario undesirable. This fact is “damning” on the game.

            Because Sakurai makes choices based on what he thinks works best you say he is “aggrandizing and deifying” himself. Completely ignoring that making decisions is well, his job.

            And most of all, you are completely ignoring the fact that there might exist people who like Dr. Mario. Imagine if Chrom was in instead of Dr. Mario. What do you think would happen?

            “Why are there so many Fire Emblem characters?”
            “Nobody even knows or likes Chrom!”
            “Couldn’t Chrom just be full character instead of a clone?”
            “Where is Dr. Mario?”
            “Why not instead of Chrom?”

            Was Palutena necessary? Why is this question even relevant?

            Is Mr. Game & Watch necessary? Is Ice Climbers necessary? Is Ganondorf, who wasn’t even in the last console Zelda game, necessary? Is the character you want to be in necessary?

            Whether anyone asked for it is also irrelevant, and weird considering you are talking about the director that decided Wii Fit Trainer would be a good addition to the game. Clearly this character already shows he adds what he thinks is interesting rather than strictly listening to what his insane fan base wants.

            Another part of this is you saying there’s *this* many people unhappy with the roster. Perhaps from where you’re standing that’s a lot of people but in the grand scheme of things it really is just a very vocal minority.

            I have also not once said “This roster has no problems”. I haven’t even said what I think about it. I’m just baffled that a director that makes choices, gets annoying fans telling him they can do his job better than him constantly and then rightfully calls them “children” gets people to say: “This is bad PR.”

            Perhaps if you do not face the facts it is, but exactly as Hideki Kamiya tells morons to F off on Twitter, his comments are completely justified.

            It seems the majority of people who get upset at Sakurai over saying this are the exact group of people he is addressing.

          • ronin4life

            All I’m saying is this is the most reactive the fanbase has ever been to the roster choices AFAIK and certainly the highest number of characters being targeted with hate per installment: that doesn’t just happen due to a handful of dissapointed individuals or a relatively minor difference of opinions. Enough people have specific targets of scorn that keep popping up in criticism. That isn’t just a case of people whining, but a sign there was a disconnect betweem what a noticeable number of gamers said they wanted and expected and Sakurai who chose to make his own decisions regardless of what people may have wanted who aren’t him

            Sometimes you ignore fans for the better, and sometimes you should listen more. And this is almost always easy to see in hindsight but difficult to impossible during development- so smashing him to pieces over it when he made a great game is extreme. Yet it cannot be denied that Sakurai admits to making choices wholly on his own, and if this is the reaction to the results then there clearly was a dedicated attitude of ignoring others if it wasn’t what he decided he already wanted which is dangerously closed minded. Following this with sweeping attacks against all the naysayers as a single group just makes this more appearant and paints his decision in even bader light.

            I have been on multuple sites and people all have things to say, and that most of them are unhappy with these specific characters is a recurring trend. This isn’t isolated, and he probably wouldn’t respond if it was.

            And speaking more personally as a discussion side-point point, I highly doubt Dark Pit would be missed were he only a skin with a different voice. Alph wasn’t, and he is a wholly different character. As is Chrom(and if Lucina was a reskin as well, FE would have an identical rep number were Chrom a full clone). And People have been complaining about FE since Melee, so it would be notjing new there anyway… »_»;

          • Glommo

            How do you know if he has an attitude of ignoring others?

            This is a tweet by Sakurai. Attached to it was this picture.

            You are ascribing qualities to Sakurai that don’t and never existed in the first place simply because you are ignorant of what the actual facts are.

            Sakurai does listen. Just not to you.

          • ronin4life

            And this is the part of the discussion were you latch onto one specific thing I said and start throwing insults. A specific point you yourself brought up by saying he should ignore fans.

            He has said, multiple times, in studio he makes all the characters himself. He has said just in this interview he made all these choices himself. He is constantly shouldering work himself, a behavior that is noble, concieted and unhealthy at different points and sometimes all at once. It isn’t a stretch to assume he doesn’t take fan thoughts but so far.

            The very picture you showed me proves this. It shows characters and series priorities he ignored, and that is just Japan only. Notice how Chrom is above Ike AND dark pit, and Waluigi, a character asked for by fans since Melee is on the list but Bowser Jr isn’t? Even Palutena falls to Waluigi, and Duck hunt is no where to be seen.(is this a Character poll or a Smash character poll anyway? My Japanese is still lacking)

            And of course, he can’t possibly listen ‘To me’. But then again, I and those like me as individual gamers weren’t any different to anyone else *during* development, including you and his supporters now… So I guess the ‘You’ is just a blanket term for ‘Everyone’.

          • Glommo

            If by insults you mean me calling you ignorant when I show the exact reason I am calling you ignorant, then sure, that is an insult.

            Meanwhile, here you are, saying things like “it isn’t a stretch to assume”, key word here being “assume” of which you seemingly do a lot. Including but not limited to me supposedly being a “supporter” of Sakurai.

            What I am a supporter of is those who realize that the world doesn’t revolve around them.

            You seem unable to grasp the irony of the situation of me showing you a picture of a poll that Sakurai himself tweeted, showing he does listen to his fans, even though you said there was a “dedicated attitude of ignoring others”, only for you to then complain about his choices once again.

            You don’t like the characters? Sure. Fine.

            Stop pretending it is Sakurai’s fault you can’t get over his choices. They say about as much about his willingness to listen to his supposed fans as your comments do about your willingness to accept people might have a different opinion than you about Waluigi or whatever other obscure video game character you like.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Is Ganondorf, who wasn’t even in the last console Zelda game, necessary?”

            Main villain of the Zelda franchise. Do your research.

          • Tylos

            Main villain of Zelda franchise is Ganon. We need more giant pig monsters carrying tridents in smash. GANONDORF wasn’t introduced till ocarina of time. But yes Ganondorf was necessary, I just wish he had his own moveset… *siiiiiiigh*

          • MagcargoMan

            Ganon and Ganondorf are just different forms of the same person.

      • Chris

        lol, Bowser Jr. is not a clone. U dum

        • ronin4life

          Exactly: multiple characters that AREN’T clones. That was my point in the first place…

  • Foxeh Shihōin

    well I’m just happy we got the characters in the game at least. they could have been like “new moves? ain’t nobody got time for that!” and not have the characters at all.

  • JP

    This game is an embarrassment. People have been looking forward to this for a long time and not only has the game itself not become more interesting, the characters people have been DYING for are not in it. Hell, they didn’t even give Gannondorf his own move set? that’s just stupid and it shows that they either don’t understand what their fans want by the 4th installment or don’t care. Nintendo should be ashamed of itself. There’s no excuse to make a franchise this caliber sub-par

    • Glommo

      You’re right. Because Ganondorf doesn’t have his own moveset and the two people that were clamoring for it to be changed are upset because of it, the Smash Bros. series is ruined.

      Nintendo has shot themselves in the foot. This newest installment has so far outsold every Smash since 64 in Japan, but clearly Nintendo is unaware what the fans want.

      They’re just stupid!

      Hmph!

      • JP

        fans have no other choice but to buy it. you probably wouldn’t understand that

        • JP

          but yeah Nintendo are masters at marketing and business, obviously. enjoy your disappointment of a game

          • Glommo

            Good thing you replied with this to yourself because it sure isn’t a reply to anything I said.

        • Glommo

          You’re right. Cardiac arrest will set in approximately 40 hours after the game has been released if you haven’t bought it yet.

          As described in the scriptures of Metal Gear.

      • MagcargoMan

        Wow you are arrogant. And this is clear proof you are a Falcondorf apologist. Just because you blindly follow Sakurai doesn’t mean you should be ignorant to that fact that a lot of people want a proper Ganondorf. Maybe one day you’ll mature instead of hidding behind your psuedo-intellectual BS?

  • Tlink7

    Sure Sakurai, you just named all the clones in the new Smash. Dr Mario. Lucina. Dark Pit. Noooo other clones at alllllll 😛

  • ronin4life

    Now I am left wondering why my comment with no obcenities was lost in Mod approval hell…
    I thought I made some decent points and it took forever to right…>.>;;

    • MagcargoMan

      A lot of websites tend to have odd moderation… Look at GameFAQS or TV Tropes for proof of this.

  • SecretX

    Wow! Another smash article above 100 comments!
    Love the article BTW.

  • Dex

    But… Wolf though…

    • Tylos

      I miss Wolf… ;(

  • Budgiecat

    No Sakurai

  • tveye

    Most meals I eat, I choose to NOT to have a dessert. Sometimes I’m completely satisfied and eating a dessert just makes me want to puke.

    • Budgiecat

      “here we replaced part of your main course with a second helping of the dessert you didn’t order!”

      “gee….thanks”

  • Budgiecat

    marry him then!

    first wipe the brown stuff off your nose…

    • Bugdiecat

      yum

    • Jeremy Wayne Humble

      Dude…if I like wiener and bawls I would!

      • Budgiecat

        but even if you did, how would you know he likes wiener n balls?

        • Bugdiecat

          only one ball and half a wiener for me, I’m on a diet, thanks.

        • Jeremy Wayne Humble

          Oh yeah…consent and all…

  • Budgiecat

    I’ll just past this here since it makes sense:

    “in a lot of peoples’ eyes, the clone characters are a waste of development resources that could have been spent elsewhere. And don’t play the “internet minority” card; there are a lot of people who don’t like that Dark Pit was picked to get a roster spot over other characters, even Alph.

    The point is that there are always going to be people who don’t like some aspect of a game, and in something like Smash Brothers, the playable character roster is a VERY important thing to get right — you can throw around gameplay all you want, but at the end of the day, it’s a fanservice title at its core. That’s why you play as fan favorite Nintendo characters and not a fully original cast.

    For further proof of this, just look at various board’s topics pre-release. Every time there was a pic-of-the-day that wasn’t a new character reveal, people were calling it a useless update. They didn’t want to see stages, items, gameplay modes, menus… they wanted to see who they can play as. Ridley’s been a highly-requested character since Melee. A lot of people were upset about Mewtwo being cut from Brawl. Look at that, I just named two characters that would have been far, FAR more welcome as playable characters and generated a metric ****ton more hype than Lucina and Dark Pit. I’m not saying to fully remove those two — just put them back as alternate costumes.

    If you get the fanservice wrong in Smash Brothers, then you get Smash Brothers wrong.”

    • Glommo

      “And don’t play the ‘internet minority’ card. Because I can’t refute it.”

      Keep on keeping on with the anecdotal nonsense.

      Sources? Facts? No such thing in the land of children.

      • Budgiecat

        I didn’t write it hence the quotes.

        • Gold_Ultima

          Well if you posted it you must agree with it, so unless you prefaced it by saying it doesn’t represent your opinion, it’s now yours to defend.

          • Budgiecat

            Just shut up and hold me

          • Bugdiecat

            please hold me.

      • MagcargoMan

        I love how you had a go at me before for calling you a kid, but of course the apologist has no problem with calling people he disagrees with “children”. Stay classy hypocrite.

  • sexyboiy1 .

    Sexyboiy1 joins the discussion…

    Alright. Sakurai don’t say you are going to get rid of clone characters, give us clone characters and then call us ungrateful. You don’t put your fans in their place, you have obviously forgotten yours. We made and support you, and if you’d like to stay successful you please us and never the other way around. I honestly feel like Sakurai was more focused on things we don’t care about: for example things in the background of the stage. again this is an example. like at a random point pikachu will float by on a cloud or putting legendary pokemon in a master(wasn’t really an issue with them being in a standard poke ball and actually made it rewarding to get a good pokemon because it was a surprise), like yeah thats cool and all but dude its a fighting game. meaning the player will be more focused on the fighters! We are gonna care about who’s in the game, how they fight, items, assist trophies etc. and when it feels like you took nothing from your fans into consideration that’s when you get your “complainers”. I will even tie in your little analogy, we ordered steak and you gave a fish. Im not saying fans won’t have things to complain about but when the majority of your fans have an issue thats not complaining thats a problem you need to check out. You have a slew of nintendo characters, hundreds man and you gave us mii… please stop with the damn mii characters in my opinion that was a wasted slot. you have like 15 fighters using swords i mean even kirbys smash is now sword kirby, thats way too much and seems really repetitive. damn near every character from brawl has the same smash i wasn’t happy about that i honestly thought you would make some new ones for everyone especially the star fox crew with the greatest middle finger to the fans all having the land master(which you did again -_-). you announce the creation of the first smash game for a handheld which is groundbreaking, but we find out we have to be punished for that by you pretty much just giving us the same game twice. Nintendo you are known for making different versions of games (example being pokemon) with things that make them special and unique. you could have given us special characters and items in both games but instead you produce the same product for two systems which I’m sure cost you pretty much nothing since you did it right? You split characters that had two forms so they could be in the ds version right? so we get the rouge of a boat load of fighters when really you took fighters with multiple forms and made them two fighters(zelda,sheik,samus,zero suit). You gave your fan base high hopes, let us down and then called us ungrateful.you basically vamped up brawls graphics and threw in some downloadable content and called it this brand new project. Thats why we “complainers” aren’t happy. I am proud of you true smash fans for supporting this but you can’t deny this feels really lazy. And trying to explain your feelings and thoughts about a game doesn’t make you a complainer it makes you a fan. This isn’t my first super smash game so i think i should at least be heard out. Im still thinking about getting the game, thats me supporting you man but this isn’t your best work and you are well aware of this.

    • Glommo
      • sexyboiy1 .

        so explain the dropping of Roy,Pichu, young link. explain why ganondorf was originally pretty much a reskin of cpm falcon and then was changed in brawl. The fact that your only response to everything i had to say was I’m in lalaland because Sakurai has never said he would get rid of clone characters proves i brought some valid points to the table. Quite honestly Sakurai just can’t handle the criticism if you ask me. Be really hard to give him crap if he would have brought quality ideas in to the game. I didn’t say this is a bad series i didn’t bash the game all i said was what i felt as a fan. He could have given the fans a vote on one of three characters or something idk man, but don’t sit here and act like you gave us an option and we came up with this as the final results.

        • Glommo

          My only response to you was sufficient. Why? Because that entire wall of text you posted consist of talking about things that never happened, like Sakurai saying he would never get rid of clone characters. Which he never did.

          You are trying to hold someone accountable for your fairy tale version of events that never actually happened.

          If they did, well, I would assume you would have no problem fetching all of those quotes you used for me? Sources please?

          I’m sure you will be able to find them all. I mean, you spent almost 600 words on them after all.

          • sexyboiy1 .

            http://www.gonintendo.com/?mode=viewstory&id=239187

            “Basically, any character is accepted if I believe it works [in the game]. On the other hand, even if a character is unique, if they overlap with other characters and aren’t unique as a fighter, they are rejected.”

            unique dude!! meaning different, not the same, not a clone

          • Glommo

            Since their functionality had differences, forms were separated from each other.

            If you look at what Sakurai has actually said, it makes it clear he considers these clones “functionally different”. Therefore he considers them eligible.

            You claim he has said: “There will not be clones”.
            Your source does not have Sakurai saying: “There will not be clones.”

            You can disagree with him on that. That’s fine.

            You can also write large amounts of nonsense based on things he hasn’t actually said. Not to mention the fact we are talking about a translated Japanese interview here, meaning that to get antsy over certain specific English words is silly. But hey, you can do that too.

            But as I said before, that’s the LaLaLand you choose for.

          • sexyboiy1 .

            lol alright man. I’m glad you are on bored with Sakurai’s decisions. You have your stance and i have my mine. Honestly i don’t even know what you disagreeing with me about. I guess I’m lying about Sakurai’s views and twisting his words but MY OPINION of this new installment of smash is that its lazy and won’t be as welcomed as its predecessors. Disagree with my “nonsense” all you want but this game isn’t what a lot of people expected. Im off to LaLaLand hahahaha

          • Glommo

            I haven’t so much said anything about your opinion on your no doubt amazing set of favorite video game characters as I have said about your staggering lack of formatting in your writing and your blatant misinformation on what Sakurai has supposedly said about this or that.

          • sexyboiy1 .

            hold up dude, as I’m going through this all you have done is try to shut down anyone with an opinion of this game. you’ve yet to say anything about your stance. So are you just here to give people with a say crap? What is your stance on this game? You probably don’t have anything to criticize right? You will just take whatever nintendo will give you? Lol i may live in LaLaLand but at least i can form an opinion and not just sit on here and tell people they’re wrong. So put yourself on the line and form an opinion.

          • Glommo

            You’re right. Because I haven’t talked about my favorite video game characters or what I think of Smash Bros. (which never had anything to do with any of what I was talking about), clearly I cannot form an opinion.

            hold up dude, as I’m going through this all you have done is try to shut down anyone with an opinion of this game.

            Except saying “Sakurai said this! Look people!” isn’t an opinion. It is a blatant attempt to try and turn your made-up quotes into facts.

            “facts” you then spent over 600 words on for no apparent reason other than to supposedly make a point. A point which consists of “I made up this thing Sakurai said so I could disagree with it.”

            Disagree all you want with Sakurai. Who cares? Your personal Smash Bros. evaluation is no doubt an amazing feat of critical splendor, but your ability to actually use facts to get to its conclusion could use some work.

          • sexyboiy1 .

            WHAT…DO…YOU…THINK…ABOUT…THE GAME? What is your opinion?

          • MagcargoMan

            He’s not gonna answer. He’s a bad troll that spouts smug BS to make himself feel smart.

          • Glommo

            I’m not going to answer because what I think about the game is completely irrelevant to what I am actually saying and to what the discussion was about in the first place.

            If you could read you would know this.

          • MagcargoMan

            You’re not in any position to call out people for logical fallacies when all you’ve done is dismiss people with the Sakurai apologist’s favourite quote “Have you ever made a game?”. Play by your own rules.

          • Glommo

            Please post the full context if you believe I have committed a logical fallacy.

            Let’s talk about it instead of screaming at others like children and expecting them to change because you don’t like them.

            I.e. Let’s make some sense instead of whatever this is.

          • MagcargoMan

            I already pointed it out in the very comment you are replying to. For someone who spams that lame “Learn to read” comeback to everyone, you sure fail at reading things that are said right in front of you.

            You used Sakruai’s over-used “Have you ever made a game?” quote to dismiss someone.

            “Let’s talk about it instead of screaming at others like children and expecting them to change because you don’t like them.”

            You’re not clever and nobody else thinks you are. Don’t go around calling others children when all you’ve done is act like a sly brat.

          • Glommo

            No you did not.

            Learn to read.

            Please post the full context if you believe I have committed a logical fallacy.

            You did not do this. Denying it doesn’t make it a reality, and neither does petty insults.

            Why do you insist on having a discussion about your perceived intellect of mine instead of actually discussing the thing this discussion form is here for? That is what my second paragraph refers to. Your seeming inability to not talk about me. Which is childish.

            And you still have not done the thing I quoted myself above about. You have not posted the full context and presented a case.

            Learn to read.

          • MagcargoMan

            Yeah, learn to read. Already said it twice now. You used Sakurai’s “Have you ever made a game” quote as an argument.

            That’s the fallacy you use. Now how about you do as you always say: “Learn to read”?

          • MagcargoMan

            “You can disagree with him on that. That’s fine.”

            Considering how you act smug towards anyone who disagrees with Sakurai, you’re a liar. You don not think it’s fine. You’re an apologist.

        • Tylos

          Umm… In relation to the Roy, Pichu and Young Link issues… Roy was to. Promote a game that hadn’t come out yet, the game didn’t do too well, and by brawl Roy wasn’t relevant anymore (other than they acts hat he is the worst Lord in FE. GODDAMMIT ROY.) Pichu was promotion for gen 2 pokemon and for similar reasons by brawl there had already been 2 more generations and Pichu was no longer relevant, was technically a joke character and Young link was replaced by Toon link since by brawl there had been two new console zelda games and they had their own new characters who could replace OOT young and adult links. Also two new games to promote.

          Then moving on to characters who remained but weren’t relevant they mainly had unique movesets. And on to why Mewtwo was removed? Eh, I dont know.

      • MagcargoMan

        >Hotlinks to Straw Man
        >Uses Straw Man arguments all the time

        The Hypocrisy continues to astound

        • Glommo

          Lies and craftiness is the refuge of fools and cowards.

          • MagcargoMan

            That explains why you always try the “I’m innocent and don’t know what you’re talking about act” instead of acknowledging your behaviour. I love how your attempts to shut me down just reveal the truth about your own comments.

    • MagcargoMan

      I was going to upvote you, but then you had that irrational Mii hate.

  • Kallumsmarties

    I feel for Sakurai, but at the time same I do feel that maybe he should of kept that to himself lol. It must be an absolute dream for him to develop such a game, but it must an a absolute nightmare. I hope he takes a long break after this. He’s still a fantastic developer and is the reason we got Kirby and made Kid Icarus for the Nintendo 3DS.

    • Glommo

      Imagine being an acclaimed developer like Sakurai, being told right after you finish Kid Icarus 3DS that you are making Smash Bros. because Iwata promised it to the fans.

      Working your butt off every day for like 3 years, ignoring your own personal health (!), developing calcific tendonitis, having ruptured muscles but still pouring your heart and soul into a project because of your passion and stubbornness.

      And then after those 3 or so years, you get the game out there, finally, into the hands of your fans, and the first thing you hear are the whiny voices of a million infants crying because Dark Pit is in the game and Waluigi isn’t.

      Heaven knows I’d take a break.

      • Santoryu02

        Are people really pissed about waluigi not being in? Waluigi’s like a joke character. Never in any major Mario games. Only in party games. That’s why he uses a tennis racket.

      • MagcargoMan

        Imagine making a game touted as Nintendo’s great crossover, and then showing favouritism to one successful game you made recently while bigger franchises get the shaft.

        Oh wait, you couldn’t. Because if you understood that you wouldn’t be an apologist.

        • Glommo

          Smash Bros. has always been about the most recent releases and successful franchises. Smash Bros 4 is no different.

          Fire Emblem has four characters because the latest game is the best selling Fire Emblem since video game sales started being tracked.

          Kid Icarus: Uprising is in the list of best-selling 3DS games.

          Punch-Out for Wii sold over a million units.

          Animal Crossing: New Leaf is one of Nintendo’s biggest hits in years.

          Pokémon shouldn’t need any explanation.

          The fact that Sakurai has authority over the character rosters has been apparent since literally the first game in the series. Why do you think there are three Kirby characters? Why do you think the Subspace Emissary was basically a Kirby game? Why do you think the menu design in every single game Sakurai has been the director on has been done by his wife?

          It’s like you come along halfway through the series, start shouting things like “but Nintendo said this and this about what Smash Bros would be!” (read: see quote about it being touted as) and then hold them to some kind of standard nobody set for them but you yourself.

          Why do you scream “apologists!” as soon as someone actually takes the time to look at the facts instead of making them up and then presents them to you?

          Why is rational debate such a problem? I thought comment sections are to talk about things, not to declare your opinion is righteous and declare everyone else looney.

          It’s like you live in a world in which other opinions than your own are not allowed to exist.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Smash Bros. has always been about the most recent releases and successful franchises.”

            Earthbound was not recent or successful. Mr Game & Watch and Ice Climbers were not from recent releases. Try again.

            “Why do you think there are three Kirby characters?”

            Because it’s a big enough franchise to warrant it. Do you seriously think that by Brawl, Kirby didn’t have enough games under his belt to warrant two more reps?

            “Why do you scream “apologists!” as soon as someone actually takes the time to look at the facts instead of making them up and then presents them to you?”

            Why do you claim you make facts when I prove you wrong every time.

            “Why is rational debate such a problem?”

            I don’t know why is is for you. Maybe when you drop your pretentious troll act and acting smug towards loads of people (and then denying everytime people call you out on your BS) you might be able to have one.

            “I thought comment sections are to talk about things, not to declare your opinion is righteous and declare everyone else looney.

            It’s like you live in a world in which other opinions than your own are not allowed to exist.”

            Oh the irony…

  • Santoryu02

    Smash has such high standards, and I’m not very impressed with this one, compared to the previous ones. However, I think the important thing about this is the fact that the game is portable. Sure, several modes disappeared, some characters have reused movesets, there isn’t anything really new(besides characters and stages), but you can play wherever you want. Now, if the Wii u version ends up having the exact same issues, I’ll be completely disappointed. I hope that nintendo was being super secretive about the wii u version, and that there are more features in it. Amiibo doesn’t really seem to hook me, unless there’s like some wii u Smash rpg within the game that uses the figures.

    • Budgiecat

      Nope on your last sentence. It’s just some lame A.I. gimmick to sell more figurines since they didn’t want to outright copy Skylanders or Disney Infinity.

      And I believe Sakurai confirmed long ago no story mode because of “Youtubers spoiling it” (dumbest excuse ever)

      • sexyboiy1 .

        the story made the game epic, melee had adventure, brawl had its story. and now this one doesn’t? Sakurai made a bad move by placing money over his fan base. Then you bash your fans claiming most are children, well duh dude you make games with a dude jumping on turtles, real mature subject there -__-. I can’t respect that he is making excuses and almost blaming us for the decision he made

      • Santoryu02

        I really hope whatever Smash Wii U has is just super secret right now. Maybe subspace is around, but kept super secret. I dunno, I’m grasping at straws. What worries me is the release date being in November. Now we know the game is already in its final stages, with less room for development.

        • Budgiecat

          I’m ready for disappoint

        • Bugdiecat

          That makes perfect sense.

    • sexyboiy1 .

      But because a game is now mobil shouldn’t mean you take away from the wii u version. The 3DS version makes sense for it to have specifications because it couldn’t handle running like the wii u would. Supersmash bros on the go is awesome. throwing a game you think that fans want and ignoring what they have to say is foolish. “The crowd screams they want steak sir.” “i like fish better.” probably won’t be a happy crowd

      • Budgiecat

        If the Wii U was insanely successful as N hoped, there wouldn’t even be a 3DS version…

      • Bugdiecat

        I like fish.

      • DeltaPeng

        I agree that they shouldn’t have limited the WiiU roster by saying it would have the same characters as the 3DS version, as it does not have the same hardware constraints as the 3DS (and henceforward, maybe characters like ice climbers could have made it in).

        Possible reasons for this may be that their goal might have been to not let 3DS owners feel left out (albeit additional characters on WiiU only could have helped sell WiiU units). Part of it may also be for the dev teams sake, a lot of effort went into the game in general, and having the additional pressure to create more or ‘enough’ content on the WiiU to differentiate it would be tough (I imagine they all need a break). But if they didn’t give that statement (that the rosters would match) they would have more freedom (in case they did happen to have time for extra characters), so that’s too bad. Maybe DLC? Nintendo’s been doing a lot of unique things related to that lately.

        Both versions will be nice to have though. The console version has the advantage of being in HD and on the larger TV screen, with easier to setup local multiplayer, and the 3DS version is an impressive feat in its own right of bringing a very playable version of Smash portable.

  • Doug1916

    that last part, a little too far there eh Sakurai

    • MagcargoMan

      He’s pretty childish in his own way.

      • Doug1916

        ya he can be pretty childish, there was the whole cutscene thing

  • DeltaPeng

    I will say I’m actually a fan of clone characters generally, in that not only does it take less development, but because the moveset is similar to another character’s, it means that for the player there is less effort to learn one character as opposed to another (it’s more a factor of noting the differences between moves rather than the functionality and general playability of the character). In Melee, I liked having the better recovery Young Link over Link (and general faster speed, multi hitting moves, secret spike crouch+A, fire stab, etc). I liked Falco and his spiking (meteor smashing) crazyness over Fox, Dr. Mario’s KO power and pill trajectory over Mario, and liked both Capt. Falcon and Ganondorf in spite of them being quite different speed-wise.

    I understand the analogy between free dessert and main course. And yes, free stuff is usually better than not having it. And as others stated, no one likes whiners, but that doesn’t mean one is immune to criticism, second looks/reviews, etc. Stating everyone that disagrees with you is childish is a bit overdue-ing it.

    That said, with my time with SSB4 so far, I will say that Dark Pit and Lucina appear to be lazy clone work compared to clone characters in Melee. From the article itself, Sakurai seems to state that Dark Pit’s only change is the Final smash and visual side attachment on his arm. I’ve played Lucina a fair number of battles, and I have a hard time seeing the differences between her and Marth (little less range with normal attacks and maybe counter [and counter seems to have power based on power of move countered], up smash appears to have more range). Dr. Mario is fine as he plays closer to the original Dr. Mario, who was a fair amount different than Mario.

    The point being is that Dark Pit and Lucina may even be better off not existing, because there aren’t many if any worthwhile changes I see that have been made to them rather than visual appearance. While it adds numbers to the roster, the quality per character seems to go down with their inclusion. As another comparison, consider Roy as a copy character to Marth. Basically same moveset, but the differences are much greater which makes the character feel and play differently than the original (Roy is much slower, sweet spot on sword is close range as opposed to Marth and the sword tip, fire effect on sword, much slower but has more knockback, etc). If they were going to create new clones, the differences between the characters should have been much more distinct and obvious, giving the character’s their own feel and potentially changing their play-style. As things stand, Lucina might as well have been a model change (like Robin), and Dark Pit a dark colored Pit. I don’t mind freebies, but in this case the freebies seem to negatively impact the overall roster (value per character) than add to it.

    My opinion may change, perhaps I have not used them long enough to see these characters true differences and worth. But that’s how it seems at this moment from what I’ve tried so far. The clone characters are a bit lazy compared to existing clones because they basically play the same as their originals.

    • MagcargoMan

      “in that not only does it take less development, but because the moveset is similar to another character’s, it means that for the player there is less effort to learn that copy character as opposed to an entirely new character”

      So… laziness?

      • DeltaPeng

        I don’t want to get into a huge long discussion over it. But if you look further in my message the laziness part isn’t mentioned till later. The part you quote is the benefits of creating clone characters. The laziness portion is how I felt that some of the latest clone characters seem to compare to previous clone characters (whom I liked more), because they don’t really seem to play all that different (not many distinct changes seem to be made).

        After sitting on it for a bit, I do think ‘lazy’ is a strong word so I take that back. The point I was more going for was that more thought should have been put in to make the characters different. But after trying Lucina and Marth more, I do note subtle but noticeable enough differences in the way they control, so it’s fine. Per the actual differences between Pit and Dark Pit, I honestly don’t care about that character, so whether the differences between them are good enough to warrant a clone character as opposed to an alt. color on the original character, I take back what I said and will leave that to other people to consider / test.

        I’ll leave some of my old post up as my opinion on the benefits of clone characters. The roster is substantial enough with enough variety to last and compliment different playing styles, and with the introduction of being able to custom characters one could always use that (to diversify their characters stats more drastically if desired).

        • MagcargoMan

          “After sitting on it for a bit, I do think ‘lazy’ is a strong word so I take that back.”

          But why? Clones are lazy. Sakurai even said he chose the six Melee clones over Dedede for the sake of having a larger roster.

          • DeltaPeng

            They take less effort, but that doesn’t necessarily equate to laziness. As stated earlier, the Melee clones were typically quite well done as most clone characters felt like you were playing with a different character, yet were still fairly well balanced, mechanics-wise.

            I’d take the 6 Melee clones any day over Dedede.

          • MagcargoMan

            You’d take 6 rehashes over one unique character?

  • kthanxyousuck

    I’m so glad I don’t take Smash Bros this seriously. It’s just a game holy crap.

    • MagcargoMan

      Not all of get to throw away $40 on every game regardless of whether we like it or not.

      And so far, all the 3DS version has done is damage the Wii U version. Ice Climbers being cut, Transformations being cut, Olimar having less Pikmin. The Wii U needs sales, and Nintendo seriously thought it would be a great idea to release the game that would sell so many Wii Us on 3DS. I’ve seen plenty of people say they won’t get the Wii U version because they can just play Smash on 3DS. If the Wii U continues to fail, it is Nintendo’s fault.

      • kthanxyousuck

        The 3DS version was planned way before the Wii U even released so they didn’t know it would sell so horribly. Should they have scrapped all the time they spent on the game because of poor Wii U numbers? I agree that wanting the games to be identical is a poor choice by nintendo and not needed as most 3DS gamers don’t care if the Wii U version has more characters, features whatever (even though the ice climbers outrage is being largely exaggerated)

        If someone isn’t getting a Wii U because this game is on 3DS it more likely means they never really wanted a Wii U. This is the only game they share in their library, so that means Bayonetta, Hyrule Warriors, 3D World, Pikmin, Zelda, Xenoblade doesn’t interest them right? Or do they mean they’ll just delay their Wii U purchase until next year?

        I know the Wii U is struggling, but it seems that Wii U owners don’t want the 3DS to have anything because of it. Nintendo needs to learn to support both platforms without one of them having to miss out.

        • MagcargoMan

          The 3DS is well off though. It’s being going strong for quite some time, and it still would even without Smash 3DS. It’s clear Smash Wii U would be a boon to the Wii U; look at how Mario Kart 8 shifted more consoles.

          Plenty of people will by a console for one or two games at first, and then more will come out that they will like. I bought a Wii for Brawl and Super Mario Galaxy, but then surprised like Donkey Kong Country Returns, Galaxy 2 and New Super Mario Bros Wii showed up to sweeten the deal.

  • Even though I kind of love how biting and frank Sakurai gets, he does also become quite condescending, and I don’t think that’s okay. At this point, I feel he should be used to complainers and have a more tactful response to them (certainly not that he deserves or should just take some of the crap he gets). The problem here is, I also feel like he sidesteps any legit complaints and just brushes everyone off, and that’s not very professional or cool.

    Then again, I also wonder if his injury plus any of the harassment he’s enduring has bittered/jaded him? Surely after all of the time and work, he probably doesn’t feel like hearing much opposition in general. Well, I hope he can take a real break and heal for now.

    As bitter as I am over some of the choices in the game (mainly with the roster), I will enjoy the game for the most part and do think both versions will have their money’s worth. (And as good as his analogy was, I do think ronin4life made a better analogy and point with his, and I think that’s another angle Sakurai should have considered in his own.)

    • Glommo

      At this point, I feel he should be used to complainers and have a more tactful response to them (certainly not that he deserves or should just take some of the crap he gets).

      The exact thing he is talking about is demonstrably childish. Complaining that “character A” is better than “character B” and should therefore be in instead is not a “legitimate complaint” the same way that going to the McDonalds and complaining that they don’t serve pizzas instead of french fries because pizzas are better is.

      There is a distinct difference between saying “I don’t like french fries as much as pizza, so that makes me like McDonalds less.” and “McDonalds sucks because they don’t serve pizzas when pizzas are better than french fries.”

      The problem here is, I also feel like he sidesteps any legit complaints and just brushes everyone off, and that’s not very professional or cool.

      Saying “My obscure favorite video game character should be in the game instead of this other obscure video game character because of reasons!” isn’t a legitimate complaint. It is naive at best.

      You know what is not very professional? Thinking you are better qualified to direct a game based on a character roster than the director that lead it for three straight years.

      It is an argument of ignorance from people who have no clue what game development entails. Perhaps Sakurai asking the audience: “Have you ever developed a game?” should have been a clue to realizing that.

      • Umm. No? Lol. That’s like me going to McDonald’s and saying, “I prefer the McRib so it should be on the menu instead of the Big Mac.” Nice try, but poor analogy. You also took one part of my comment and went way off the rails with it. I said he should have a smarter reply instead of an inflammatory remark that condescends basically everyone that has any sort of disagreement. That’s not particularly wise.

        You’re really just responding to me out of pocket and throwing things out there without even knowing my full stance.

        How about you stop being childish and defensive and take a moment to read what people actually say instead of just arguing with people that have any hint of criticism, especially when accompanied by praise/content. No one is stopping you from enjoying the game and everyone else, whether whining or critiquing, aren’t hurting the game. People have different feelings and opinions and will voice them. Get over it.

        If you can’t handle that, don’t go to comments sections.

        • Glommo

          Except I am responding to what is actually being said, while your entire last paragraph consists of nothing but your interpretation of what I supposedly feel like.

          My analogy does hold up. Perhaps instead of saying “It doesn’t hold up because I said so.” you could use actual arguments to debunk my analogy. In which case I would be more than happy to change my own stance on the matter.

          My analogy holds up because the general thought behind it is that you don’t go to McDonalds to get pizzas, in the same way that you don’t go to “Smash Bros. character pool” to get “characters”.

          The amount of variables and decisions that are being made here are not only large, but not visible or knowable to anyone outside the development team.

          Perhaps your favorite obscure video game character couldn’t make it into the newest Smash Bros. due to licensing issues. Perhaps it was budget. Perhaps someone sneezed on the design documents and threw them away because they thought they were filthy.

          Attaching supposed critiques to this such as “laziness” or anything of the sort is hilarious because there is no evidence whatsoever. You simply do not know.

          Not even once have I said you cannot have an opinion. Look at DeltaPengs response down below. A perfect example of how you can both find something to not be of your liking and still stay within the realm of reason.

          Neither have I said anything about my enjoyment or lack thereof of the game. You are right. This is a comment section. You express your views. I express mine. Supposedly you then talk or something. Unless you would rather immediately just disregard what someone else says. You can do that too.

          In that instance I would recommend you heed your own advice and avoid comment sections since my criticism of what you were saying is apparently too much for you to handle, because it ostensibly makes you immediately amount an offense to my character instead of what I am actually saying.

          • You just like word soup apparently. I’ll be honest and say I read a paragraph and one sentence of all you said, because in your initial response towards me you showed that you extrapolate and put words in people’s mouth (or on their keyboard) and you didn’t even bother to understand what I was saying or where I stood.

            If you want to defend Sakurai and the game, fine. But don’t try to defend it from people that are already on their side. If you bothered to go back and read my comment, you would know where I’m coming from. Sakurai has suffered a lot through Smash’s development and he’s had a hard, long time and certainly is entitled to be grumpy and not needing to take people’s crap, but if he wants to ensure people that they can trust him and his opinion (and judgement), then he shouldn’t make sweeping generalizations. Again, I find him funny and brutally honest, but he is quite condescending at times.

            I was perfectly polite, fair and neutral in my first comment, and just because I don’t care for some stranger trying to talk me down when they didn’t even know what I was talking about, does not mean that I can’t handle comments. I’m fine with dissenting opinions, I just don’t like snotty attitudes from people that don’t try to be open-minded or polite to others. You’ve been rude up and down this thread to a number of people, some of which weren’t very rude or offensive at all. I never judged your character, just your words and they were rude. That’s that.

            I won’t respond to you again unless you can learn to actually read people’s words and respond to them with the proper attitude.

          • Glommo

            and respond to them with the proper attitude.

            Read: Respond to them with an attitude and opinion they like.

            Learn how to take criticism. You could also try to learn how to not be so hypocritical all the time but judging by this post that is perhaps a more deep-rooted issue.

          • MagcargoMan

            Oh, you know, you could just admit you’re arrogant and rattle on about BS?

          • Glommo

            You’re still here?

            Learn how to read.

        • MagcargoMan

          Ignore him. He’s the worst troll I’ve seen on this site.

          • I believe it after looking over some of his posts. He really does just ramble on about nothing.

          • Glommo

            Yes, because unless people expressly agree with you they ramble on about nothing.

            Classy.

          • MagcargoMan

            Take a hike you pretentious cancer.

      • MagcargoMan

        “Saying “My obscure favorite video game character should be in the game instead of this other obscure video game character because of reasons!” isn’t a legitimate complaint.”

        And he didn’t say that. Try again apologist.

        • Glommo

          He said people leveled legitimate complaints. I showed them a complaint that is consistently shouted at Sakurai that is most definitely not a legitimate complaint.

          I never claimed puchinri said that at all.

          Try again troll.

          • MagcargoMan

            No, you pathetic troll. You strawman people you disagree with. Why don’t you do something productive with your miserable life instead of performing all this self-stroking of yours on a gaming news site?

    • kthanxyousuck

      The thing about responding to complaints is that there is no real right way to do it. This is about the 10th time he’s been asked about character selection and be honest, regardless of what or how he says it, are you going to be less bitter?

      • MagcargoMan

        You can’t seriously deny that Glommo has been going around acting smug and arrogant to anyone who dares not agree with Sakurai’s decisions, right?

        • kthanxyousuck

          Oh no he totally has. I’m definitely not on his side either lol. And even Sakurai was unprofessional about the way he addressed some of the complaints but there’s nothing this guy can say besides “I’ll add in this character” at this point that would satisfy angry fans.

          • MagcargoMan

            Yeah, it kinda sucks that no matter what he’ll do a portion f the fanbase won’t be happy.

            I mean, I hate clones, but not because I wanted someone else; I just hate clone characters. I can’t help but feel that if he just made them alts though a lot more people (me included) would be happier. I mean, look how many people are happy about the Koopalings being in even though they are alts. I’m sure that the people who are happy with Doc, Lucina and Dark Pits being alts would outweigh the ones who wanted them as clones.

          • kthanxyousuck

            I don’t understand why they’re clones instead of alts. I’m gonna go out on a limb and said they did it because at least in Lucina and Dark Pit’s case they’re characters from recent games and they were trying to maybe appeal to newer smash fans who have played FE:A and KI:U so they don’t really see them as clones. A lot of FE:A fans were going crazy when they saw her reveal trailer. Dr. Mario is a bit of a toss up though.

          • MagcargoMan

            I think he does simply to pad up the roster count. He even said that in Melee he could have had King Dedede, but chose to make six clones to have a higher roster count. Honestly, it feels unprofessional. I prefer quality over quantity in the roster.

            He says in this interview that Dr Mario came back because of how Mario’s moveset differs but honestly I feel like that’s his excuse to not just give Mario his old Down B and Down Aerial.

          • kthanxyousuck

            I believe that too. Pad the roster with clones of characters from recent games gets fans of that game excited and makes the roster bigger in numbers. It’s really silly that he feels that would even be needed. I mean 45 still would have been the biggest roster ever right? And the addition of mii fighters was pretty amazing.

          • MagcargoMan

            Definitely. The roster would still be 46 characters strong (48 if you count Mii Fighter as three characters), so even without the three clones we’d still have the biggest roster in Smash. Sakurai needs to learn less is more sometimes.

            I’m not sure if there’s any thing else to say, but this is it, it was nice talking to you. I enjoyed having this conversation. Much more fun than those horrible discussions I’ve had to endure from Glommo. 😛

          • MagcargoMan

            Whoops, I misunderstood your original comment. I thought you were talking about “This is about the 10th time he’s been asked about character selection” Glommo, but I now realise you meant Sakurai. Sorry about my first response seeming a bit random now.

        • Glommo

          What did I have to do with this at all?

          Seems like I have my very first internet stalker.

          • MagcargoMan

            Nope, I thought kthanxbuy was referring to you when he said “This is about the 10th time he’s been asked about character selection” since you spout on nonsense about how you haven’t stated your opinion on the roster and when people ask you, you just ignore them.

            Don’t flatter yourself, no-one would even want to stalk you because you are a completely unlikable person.

      • Oh, I’m not bitter about his responses~. Like I said, I like it. For others? I think there can be a smart way. Again, I don’t blame him that much because his health has been compromised even and he has to put up with so much crap. I don’t expect him to always be so civil, but I think he should be more careful. Especially since one version of the game still needs to hit store shelves. x’D

  • sexyboiy1 .

    In all honesty I really just wanted an awesome storyline like in Brawl. The entire story had no talking and we could still understand what was going on. I thought all the cool cutscene introductions for characters were from the story mode. To find out we don’t have a story in this one kinda sucks especially with new and interesting characters, would be awesome to see them interact in a story similar to the sub space in brawl.

    • kthanxyousuck

      And the thing is, you would have thought they would have had cinematic cutscenes with the way they did the later trailer reveals (Palutena’s is still legendary) and they could have done something really cool with story mode considering they added the mii fighters. Might have just been that the game was so jam packed (at least on 3DS) that none of this stuff could fit.

      • MagcargoMan

        Sadly, Sakurai cut Adventure Mode for a really stupid reason; people watched the cutscenes on YouTube, and he felt the cutscenes were the only reason to play that mode.

  • Sam Morin

    I’m fine with clones like Falco, Wolf, Toon Link, Luigi and even Ganondorf, despite him not having a reason for being one. But the three in 3DS are almost exact copies. It feels like we’re back to Melee’s unoriginal roster.

    Add to that the fact that Sakurai is acting like a total child regarding the issue pisses me off, while most comments here actually defend and congratulate him. It’s like Phil Fish all over again (except this man made games that are without a doubt good). If he can’t take valid criticism, even if it is delivered by whining Internet doofuses, he should either keep it to himself or just stop making video games (which I honestly don’t want him to).

  • Glommo

    It’s really quite hilarious how upset some people get once you disagree with them here.

    Like holy crap, I knew the Smash Bros. fan base was bad, but this is just amazing.

    • The rational ones among us there that have made those mistakes as idiotic manchildren ourselves that have gotten over it and ourselves cringe enough for the rest of the planet on that.
      That I assure you.

      Pwah.

      • MagcargoMan

        Oh please, you can’t honestly say that Glommo is a rational person in the slightest. Look around you, all he is does is bring his smug brand of trolling here and act like a pretentious snob to anyone who doesn’t suck up to Sakurai like he does.

        • Glommo

          This wasn’t about me, stalker.

          • MagcargoMan

            Try harder, you egotist.

    • Operative

      Goes both ways. For every person whining mercilessly about every single thing Sakurai does, there’s another who will fight tooth and nail to defend every decision no matter what. It’s embarrassing to read both.

      • Glommo

        Please point me, and everyone, to the comments in this comment section that: “fight tooth and nail to defend every decision (of Sakurai) no matter what”.

        I’ll look forward to seeing you grasping for straws.

        • Operative

          Did I say it was just here? Nope. How about you stop being so aggressive and maybe people won’t act the way you’re whining about in your post 🙂

          • Glommo

            Moving the goalposts in addition to the so-called Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

            You could also try to provide actual evidence but I suppose that is too much to ask when there isn’t any. 🙂

          • Operative

            You. That’s my evidence. You went through nearly every single comment expressing disapproval of Sakurai’s attitude here. But it doesn’t take a genius to realize Nintendo is known to have some rabid fans who take everything that comes out of them as indisputable gospel. 🙂

          • Glommo

            You are trying to poison the well by pointing out that a commenter in a comment section spent their time commenting, only to then spout complete ad hominem drivel that doesn’t make any logical sense.

            And you still haven’t presented the evidence of the nonsensical claims I called your bluff on.

            Maybe you shouldn’t be in a comment section if you aren’t ready to discuss something. 🙂

          • Operative

            No, I can discuss. It’s just you do so in a way that quite clearly rubs people the wrong way. Back to my other comment, people would be more willing to discuss things if you weren’t so aggressive, which clearly you are. The sad part is I agree with you on many points that you made, but you make them in such rude ways.

          • Glommo

            Okay, then your comment about how there are people who will “fight tooth and nail” about everything Sakurai says was just a filler statement. Gotcha. What I said was clearly about this comment section right here, but I’m glad you felt the need to state that there are people who do things differently somewhere else on the internet, as if this is news to anyone, or relevant to what I said at all.

            If you can’t take harsh criticism, (which you call aggressive behavior, which I find quite interesting considering all my comments are mostly about the actual discussion and not about useless tangents like if the poster above me is a nice person or not) you shouldn’t seek it out.

            Am I responsible for calling out the bluff of a person who tells me I am an “apologist” because I have a different opinion? The majority of the people in this comment section seem to be infants who are ostensibly unable to understand that their opinions are not wholesome, all-encompassing rules of law.

            I treat them with the amount of respect they dole out to whoever enters their sights.

            If you think Dr. Mario isn’t the end of the world, doesn’t spell doom for us all and doesn’t prove that Sakurai is a narcissistic, lazy moron who understands nothing and does nothing but twist his thumbs all day, they go ballistic. For some reason that opinion is not tolerated and must be destroyed immediately.

            As proven by my resident stalker and countless others who do not respond to the points I make but instead respond to the fact that they were offended by what I wrote in a tiny box in a comment section. And that is after they tell you you’re a godforsaken idiot apologist for saying Dr. Mario isn’t the siren call for apocalypse.

            What do you expect? What about instead you spend some time actually thinking about whatever it is you’re excreting?

            Once again you fall into the hole of Post hoc ergo propter hoc. All I’ve ever done is respond to moronic messages.

            If you’re going to accuse me of something, at least get your facts straight. Or don’t. And be like the legion of other children in here who cannot deal with dissenting opinions unless silenced.

          • Operative

            Fair enough!

          • Glommo

            Well, I can’t say I was expecting that.

            Regardless, I hope the game is to your liking, and if it isn’t, there’s always the next one I guess.

          • Operative

            Nah, I should apologize. I haven’t been in a good mood recently and I saw your replies as something of their own nature rather than mirroring who you were replying to, which is completely fair. Even if it’s over the internet anonymously, I like to be civil and I haven’t been

          • MagcargoMan

            No, don’t apologise, he is the worst troll I’ve seen on his sight and all you are doing is feeding his ego.

          • Glommo

            Well, if I contributed to your poor mood, I apologize.

            I hope you feel better soon.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Am I responsible for calling out the bluff of a person who tells me I am an “apologist” because I have a different opinion? The majority of the people in this comment section seem to be infants who are ostensibly unable to understand that their opinions are not wholesome, all-encompassing rules of law.”
            “As proven by my resident stalker”

            Holy hell you are self-absorbed. You should see a doctor about your text-book narcissism.

          • MagcargoMan

            Keep rocking that dictionary, know it all.

  • HAH! That’s what happens when you complain like that.
    Golden Rule, folks.

  • Rabbit.EXE

    Sakurai: I know I said I’d get rid of clone characters by fan requests, but I decided to say screw you guys Im doing it my way.

  • Glommo

    Note to self: Never present opinion to zealots, even if they are expressly, by own choice, engaging themselves in comment sections.

    They cannot and will not take criticism and do everything in their power to disregard what you say and instead try and insult you constantly and present arguments that make no logical sense.

    But, I guess since a lot of them are children, it cannot be helped.

    That was even more applicable than I first thought.

    • MagcargoMan

      Yeah, it applies to sad trolls like you.

      The irony of calling others zealots when all you’ve done is be an apologist and wave your smug brand of trolling in front of people who stand up to BS, and then play up your “what did I do, I’m innocent” act when people call you out for it.

  • Guest

    Why is people still arguing about this ? Melee had even more clones and way lamer, I mean, Pichu ? seriously ? self-damaging pikachu ? worst clone ever.
    Dr. Mario, Lucina and Dark Pit take nothing away from the game, they’re just extra characters, and no, Ridley and Mewtwo wouldn’t be playable even if those 3 clones weren’t in the game, they don’t take slots for other characters, they’re just something extra, like when you buy chinese food and they give you a fortune cookie for free, would you be b*tching about the service because the waiter brought you a cookie you didn’t order ? and if Dr. Mario was just a costume people would be whining that he should have been a clone that played like Melee Mario and that it’s stupid for him to use FLUDD, so really, to all those twelvies whining just stop b*tching about the game because you’re still going to buy it day one on launch, the roster is already really diverse and big, it’s the best roster for a fighting game ever, no, it’s actually the best roster of any videogame ever, and also everybody is going to play more as Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina rather than as Mario, Pit and Marth.

    • MagcargoMan

      Actually they do take away. They are lame clones that took away three cool alt costumes. They also take away some of the polish of the game by being tacked on to pad up the roster.

      “like when you buy chinese food and they give you a fortune cookie for free, would you be b*tching about the service because the waiter brought you a cookie you didn’t order ?”

      Fail analogy. Now here’s an accurate one: When you buy a nice soup and you find a few hairs in it, would you avoid complaining because you got the hairs for free?

      “and if Dr. Mario was just a costume people would be whining that he should have been a clone that played like Melee Mario and that it’s stupid for him to use FLUDD”

      And those people are stupid. Wanting something uncreative as a clone is stupid.

      “to all those twelvies whining just stop b*tching about the game because you’re still going to buy it day one on launch”

      Nah, twelvies would be the people whining that Doc would be using FLUDD or that he should be a clone when he shouldn’t.

      “no, it’s actually the best roster of any videogame ever,”

      Nope.

      • Guest

        ”They are lame clones that took away three cool alt costumes.”

        No they didn’t because you can still play as those cool alts, they just have their own slot now, it’s just more content for the game, have you seen Lucina ? all her recolors are based on a different FE: Awakening character.

        ”Fail analogy.”

        No, my analogy was perfect because a cookie is still food, you’re comparing hairs to soup, that’s like comparing a rock with a dog it doesn’t make sense.

        ”Nah, twelvies would be the people whining that Doc would be using FLUDD or that he should be a clone when he shouldn’t.”

        I really doubt twelvies were Melee players since that game was launched way back in 2001.

        In all honesty it’s just absurd to whine about the 3 clones, Pichu in Melee was much worse and nobody b*tched about it, if Dark Pit, Dr. Mario and Lucina were alt costumes that wouldn’t make the game better, it just would reduce the amount of content the game has, now that’s pretty stupid to wish for.

        • MagcargoMan

          No they didn’t because you can still play as those cool alts, they just have their own slot now”

          Then they aren’t alts, they are playable characters. And their no longer cool because instead of being another look to give a character (like Little Mac’s jogging suit), they’re now the means of lazy roster padding.

          “have you seen Lucina ? all her recolors are based on a different FE: Awakening character.”

          She still could have as an alt. Alph is an alt for Olimar and he still gets some alt colours.

          No, my analogy was perfect because a cookie is still food, you’re comparing hairs to soup, that’s like comparing a rock with a dog it doesn’t make sense.”

          Nope, it does make sense. Soup = Game. Hairs = Stupid Stuff that tarnishes the experience (ie. Clones).

          “Pichu in Melee was much worse and nobody b*tched about it”

          BS lie. Everybody hated Pichu. Everybody still does.

          “if Dark Pit, Dr. Mario and Lucina were alt costumes that wouldn’t make the game better, it just would reduce the amount of content the game has, now that’s pretty stupid to wish for.”

          Yes it would, because more characters would have alts and we wouldn’t have three low quality characters.

          And “less” content isn’t really a loss since all you “lose” are three cheap attempts at bolstering the roster number.

          • kthanxyousuck

            Actually your analogy makes no sense to me. Hair in soup means you can’t eat it.

            Fortune cookies can be ignored, clones can be ignored. You don’t like them, you wish they weren’t included, you would have preferred an eggroll (aka new character) but at the end of the day, you can still play the game.

            As I’ve said before, people’s outrage really seems to depend on the fandom. FE fans love Lucina being her own character and use her constantly and don’t see her as being useless. Different strokes for different folks. On the internet, every outrage seems magnified but it’s really not as widespread as it seems.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Hair in soup means you can’t eat it.”

            Well, you could, but the experience is soured by the unpleasant addition.

            “Fortune cookies can be ignored, clones can be ignored. ”

            You don’t have to eat a fortune cookie, but you do have to encounter the clones in Classic/All-Star Mode, and you do have to play as them to get their trophies for 100% completion.

            “you would have preferred an eggroll (aka new character)”

            Holy hell, does anybody get that someone not liking clones doesn’t mean they expected another character to get in instead?

          • Guest

            Whatever, it’s useless to try to reason with you now but you can’t be twelve forever, so it’s just a matter of time for you to realize the stupidity of this argument.

            Oh, and before you go ” I’m actually 20-something you idiot ” I just have to say there’s such a thing as manchilds who still have the stubborn idiotic mentality of a 10 year old, if you really have that much of a problem with these 3 clones then I invite you to skip this game.

          • MagcargoMan

            Of course the typical ignorant Sakurai fanboy would dismiss people who don’t suck up his BS as “manchilds”. Go away unless you can make an actual argument.

            Also, can’t really skip the game when I already have it, can I?

          • MagcargoMan

            This is late, but I only noticed it just now, so I’m gonna reply to it.

            “As I’ve said before, people’s outrage really seems to depend on the fandom. FE fans love Lucina being her own character and use her constantly and don’t see her as being useless.”

            Dude, I’ve beaten Awakening. I love the game. But that doesn’t change how Lucina feels unnecessary. The logic of “You don’t like that character because you’re not a fan of that series” is dumb.

  • Glommo

    .

    • Guest

      F*CKING LOL

  • John H Player

    dear person who hates listening to the “children” fans of your game… You completely failed us at your 3ds game. If i could return it I would, thank you for making clones and wasting my weed money sir. I don’t see buying a wii u now due to how horrible the 3ds game was. pokken is coming out and I can’t wait to switch off Smash. Thanks for completely destroying my hopes for this game. LAG CITY like its 1995. failure of a game

    • Glommo

      What ghetto stores do you visit that you can´t return your video games?

      I think you need to reread what Sakurai said and maybe try and do a better job at understanding it properly.

      • John H Player

        the eshop store.

    • LordDisco

      Umm… 1) Clones have pretty much always been in Smash Bros. What’s your point? 2) Pokken is coming out? Umm… you mean to Japanese arcades? Because that is literally all we know right now. No word or announcement for international release and console availability. And 3) Umm… I’d like to hear exactly what games you were playing online from 1995, because there weren’t a whole lot, and SEGA was the only console company to offer online services, although very limited.

      Oh, and just to counter-argue, but I love Smash Bros for 3DS. I love the clones, I will definitely be buying the Wii U version, and I think it is a HUGE success! Notice how I used the pronoun “I” to signify my opinion. When you say things like, “You completely failed us at your 3ds game.”, I personally think you’re wrong. And Sakurai definitely didn’t fail, considering the game has sold almost 3 million copies so far and the game has a Metacritic score of 85. Those numbers prove that it is both commercially and critically successful.

      A better sentence from you should have been, “You have failed me personally, Sakurai, and I want a refund because I somehow can’t return my copy of the game.”

      • John H Player

        and what, are you not rich? that game is so going in the game room three weeks into it being out **if it is good***

        • LordDisco

          What are you even talking about? Am I not rich? What? I think I’ve had better arguments with my 3-year-old son than this. Learn how to counter-argue, not be ridiculous.

          • John H Player

            um, i was telling your broke-ness that I am rich and will have the arcade set up the month it comes out… if it is good.

      • John H Player

        lol lag fest on a simple 4 player game is a fail for the whole community not just for the you and I’s of the world. Get over trolling a comment brother and play with your 3 year old on a laggy horrible game. maybe you can use it to teach your child smash. wirelessly hook two 3ds up and wait 10 minutes for your 2 stock game to finish. NOTHING TO DO WITH INTERNET. This game lags with connected 3ds and 2ds. again, not to make fun of your poorness, but have you tried playing between systems? probably not, since having a 3 year old means you don’t probably have multiple systems… either way. you have the Internet, you can find this problem EVERYWHERE. A laggy broken game is a laggy broken game and should have never been produced! Some of us have been waiting since melee for a good game (brawl was a joke and worth only the time you and your 3 year old play on it) So yes. on the fourth generation of the game, I expected, NOT HOPED, EXPECTED a good game. load screens are not a game, they are a load screen. I didn’t pay 50 bucks for load screens. Cheers troll

        • LordDisco

          You, sir, are ridiculous. First off, you question my financial status, which is a ludicrous argument. Second, you apply having a child means I don’t have multiple consoles, which is also ludicrous. Third, you are calling me a troll when you, in the same breath, said all of these lies. You are literally the definition of a troll. Someone who makes up crap about other people to initiate unnecessary arguments and try to avoid the topic of conversation.

          But let’s talk about Smash Bros for 3DS.

          I have played online numerous times with little-to-no lag. My internet speed is 98DL/81UL, since I live in Tokyo and use fiber optic. Oh, and since I live in Tokyo, I must be so “poor”, especially since Tokyo is literally the wealthiest city in the world.

          How about I play the troll this time and make fun of you? Maybe you are lagging so much because you live in a poor area and have crappy internet. Maybe the only console you have is a 3DS and you are using it to comment on this site, which explains your horrible grammar and misspellings. And maybe you aren’t even playing Smash Bros at all. Maybe you are playing on that hot Chinese handheld, the Nantandu 3DV, and playing the highly anticipated title, Crash Bros for 3DV. That would explain your terrible lag, and it might even explain this sentence, ” load screens are not a game, they are a load screen.”, whatever that’s supposed to mean.

          • John H Player

            lol it lags off line with console to console… this you would know if you had more than one copy… or tried playing with the extra consoles at your disposal… since this seems to be a new fact to you (even though i found it the second i looked it up the day i got my copy) . Am I wrong?

            Load screens are not a game… means all we have is load screens at the bottom of the screen a spinning L ball is not fun when you and your friends are sitting down together from out of town to play smash … WHEN in fact it CAN’t BE DONE, unless you are ok with 1-2 seconds of lag between button presses. system to system. Nothing to do with your fibor optic cables or anything. Also, It is the wealthiest city in the fact you have the Asian Silicon Valley there, most people are poor. 1% of the wealth does not make the other 99% worth any more just because you have to pay 2000 a month for a small one room apartment. Also, you comment on my grammar? I’m speed typing and IF i cared for by blogs to be some English essay I would have typed it out in such a format. The fact is, I do not care a ratsbutt for how these comments are taken grammatically. I was pointing out the simple fact that this game is a fail. Just like Brawl was a fail. IT is an incomplete game that is buggy, glitched, laggy, and just feels rushed and sloppy.

            PSAS did a better job. That, in and of its self is enough of an insult to the “children” who paid for this game.

          • LordDisco

            Okay. Now you are just making stuff up. I have two 3DSs, both with a copy of Super Smash Bros, and I play it often with my wife and son. There is ZERO lag in local play. I mean, absolutely ZERO. It has been extremely smooth, and the only time I’ve experienced lag has been online, when I’m playing against people in countries like UK, France, and sometimes America. That kind of lag and latency is very common in a fighting game, as input lag makes a huge difference in the competition. Street Fighter IV has had a huge problem with online latency, and it is highly recommended to play locally, which is where Street Fighter IV shines best.

            Smash Bros is not a failure. It is commercially and critically successful. A “failure” is something that failed to meet what it promised, OR a “failure” is something that flopped on the market and didn’t sell through its stock at all. Smash Bros for 3DS did not fail at either of these things, so stop dramatically blowing the situation way out of proportion.

            And I don’t care if you’re speed-typing or what, I speed-type too, and I care about what I’m communicating. The problem with your comments are that they are extremely rude and horribly communicated. Many of your sentences are incoherent, so I can’t understand exactly what you’re communicating. Even after you explained the “Loads screens are not the game” comment, you only made it more confusing. Load screens are in ALL games. So if GTAV a load screen? Is Hyrule Warriors a load screen? Is Kid Icarus Uprising a load screen? Is Destiny a load screen? Is Call of Duty a load screen? Is Battlefield a load screen? C’mon. You’re complaining about Smash Bros having loading screens? That’s absolutely ridiculous.

          • John H Player

            lol im not lying. I have two 2Ds and two 3ds, with two copies of the game. it lags. whatever you want to say mr.japan-man I don’t care. game lags. all the time. and wow to how weak sauce the game is. completely unfinished just like Brawl was.

            your wife places smash with you??? now who is lying?

          • LordDisco

            “your wife places smash with you??? now who is lying?”

            *sigh* Are you some male chauvinist that thinks women can’t enjoy things that men enjoy? My wife enjoys playing video games with me, especially Nintendo games. She plays Mario Kart, Smash, Tekken, Castle Crashers, and Super Meat Boy amongst many others, and she’s actually quite good.

            I honestly want to know why you have made stabs at both my wife and my son during these comments, as if you think you have a right to judge them without even knowing them. You, sir, are ridiculous… and your grammar continues to be atrocious.

          • John H Player

            first review that google pops out. not sure what search engine you have out there (i could google it but i wont)

            simple “ssb4 lags ” and you have the review I wish I had seen before getting this game. Brawl was 10 years ago… there is ZERO reason for this farce of a complete game. I was dumb and refused to read the reviews the first week it was out. Silly me.

            http://www.idigitaltimes.com/super-smash-bros-4-3ds-multiplayer-lag-during-gameplay-consistent-problem-heres-how-fix-it-388594

          • LordDisco

            I love that you link that article, and the very first line of it states, “There’s no denying that Super Smash Bros 4 on the 3DS is a great game.” And besides, that wasn’t a review. It was an article about how lag, and honestly, it sounds like a double issue. In Japan, we use fiber optic internet, so our internet speeds are blazing fast. In America, I know that the internet speed is embarrassingly slow. My father said his is about 8MB DL/3MB UL, which means my Japanese internet is more than 10x’s faster on download and almost 30x’s faster on the upload. Because of that, it only makes sense why Smash in Japan is smoother and less laggy.

            “I was dumb”

            Well, I’m glad you came to terms with yourself.

  • BlueSunStudios

    Where was the hate for clones back in the older days? Seriously, I heard virtually nonexistant complaints about Ryu or Ken from Street Fighter 1 or the pre Super versions of Street Fighter 2 even when they first came out despite the fact that at the time they were literally headswaps and palette swaps of each other in every sense of the word. Worse, people generally excuse those older games and give them passes for what newer games are doing now simply because they’re older games with older technology. What is wrong with us, did we all get some uppity stick shoved far up a certain part of our collective anatomies?

    • MagcargoMan

      “Worse, people generally excuse those older games and give them passes for what newer games are doing now simply because they’re older games with older technology.”

      That’s exactly why they had it though. Limitations.

      What is wrong with apologists, do they feel that if they criticise anything they will no longer be considered fans?

      • BlueSunStudios

        Except they had every choice to not include the clones in the first place, limitations or not.

        • MagcargoMan

          You just don’t get it, do you?

          • BlueSunStudios

            I don’t get how they made the decision to put in clones in their first games and people didn’t speak ill of it because they considered it groundbreaking back then? That people’s standards then weren’t as high as they are now? What exactly am I not getting here?

          • MagcargoMan

            Because back then games were simpler. Fighting games had smaller rosters of only 8 to 12 characters, so padding was more necessary. These days, fighting games have 30+ characters, so padding is completely unnecessary.

            “That people’s standards then weren’t as high as they are now?” That we’re more aware and don’t tolerate lazy game design.

          • BlueSunStudios

            So just because we live in 20-whatever-the-hell-year-we’re-in-now with all of the crapton of fighting games we have that means that clones are an abominable sin no one should commit ever for any reason.

          • Guest

            it is pointless to argue with this magcargo dude and if you have an opinion contrary to his own he’ll label you as a sakurai fanboy so just leave him alone bro it’s not like Nintendo will release a patch to remove the extra characters just because he wants less playable characters in the game

          • MagcargoMan

            Typical. Hiding behind a Guest account while you cowardly talk about someone behind their back.

            And no, there ARE Sakurai fanboys in this thread. All they do is suck up to every decision and dogpile anybody who dares to question Sakurai instead of treating him like some almighty entity.

            And less characters isn’t a bad thing if they’re just glorified alt costumes with copypasted movesets. Try again.

          • MagcargoMan

            They exist to pad and fluff the roster count. It’s lazy, it’s tacky, and we’ve moved beyond that.

            It’s like how racism was deemed acceptable 50 years ago, but we grew up and realised how stupid it was. I don’t see you getting mad about people changing their views on something like that compared to a long time ago.

          • BlueSunStudios

            You cannot compare this to racism, something completely different and irrelevant to what I’m talking about.

          • MagcargoMan

            No, your point was “People shouldn’t change their standards on something that people didn’t used to have a problem with”. I simply showed you why that is flawed.

          • BlueSunStudios

            First, can you tell me why people have a problem with racism and why they have a problem with videogame clones and tell me what they have to do with each other?

          • MagcargoMan

            Typical. I point out a flaw in your logic, and instead of addressing it you ignore it and ask questions like you do in every single reply? You made a big deal about “Why are people caring about something they didn’t care about 20 years ago”, I showed you an example of why that way of thinking is flawed.

          • BlueSunStudios

            Okay, one, you may have pointed out that the logic is flawed, but you still haven’t answered my question. Do you know what racism is?

            And let me restate my original comment? Why do people have so much of a problem with something that has little impact on society at all compared to something like racism?

          • MagcargoMan

            Yes I do know very well why it is bad.

            The whole point of bringing it up was to show way of thinking. Racism is way, way worse, but the entire point was to show why it’s flawed to question why people change their views on something after a few decades.

  • MagcargoMan

    Very well said. Sadly, he won’t respond though. Gold_Ultima tends to ignore people who call out clone-defender fallacies.

  • MagcargoMan

    We were both in the art piece conversation, but we weren’t talking to each other.

    That said, you did bring up Zelda II and talked about it being completely different making it unpopular with fans. I’m not sure if the painting analogy was really comparable anyway. The difference between this situation and that is that the former is about the same gameplay but people wanting some consideration to a few modes and characters, while the later is just different altogether.

    What I mean is the painting analogy doesn’t quite work, because Smash Bros 4 is like a painting that is similiar to the painting that proceeded it, while Zelda II is a painting that looks nothing like the last in any way. I should add that I haven’t played Zelda II, so I’m not judging it , in case it seemed that way.

    That said, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with making a different “painting”, just as long as it’s good. People whine about Sunshine but honestly it was good. They just hate it for stupid reasons like not being able to long jump anymore.

    • Tylos

      yeah. I just replied to that analogy because that particular person used it in a way it didn’t work saying that since its Sakurai’s painting it justifies everything he does, but I said that since it is a “painting” made for an audience in mind and you should try to satisfy said audience If you want the painting to sell. Sunshine falls under something I recall being like a separate painting that isn’t a direct follow up to the original and so it can do as it likes. Sunshine isn’t a direct sequel to 64 but Galaxy 2 was to Galaxy so more things about fans have to be taken into account. Let’s say for example they had made Galaxy 2 and you liked Galaxy so you expect similar level design. But then you get it and instead of being in space it’s Sunshine 2 or something similarly different. Smash bros is like a continuous set of painting that are meant for a particular audience and you need to satisfy them lest your product departs too much and doesn’t sell anymore.

      • MagcargoMan

        This analogy makes sense for gameplay, but I’m pretty sure this was brought up for someone talking about something else.

        • Tylos

          Yeah. Probably. I don’t remember the whole conversation. It was pretty long actually.

          • MagcargoMan

            Very well then. I think that’s it. Thanks for addressing my points. I feel much better now that we’ve ended this conversation on a more positive note.

          • Tylos

            I also feel much better. I don’t usually try to sound hostile or rude but it’s sometimes hard for me. It can be funny as well because even in public my friends can’t always tell if I’m being serious, sincere, Sarcastic or condescending because I apparently always sound like I’m being Sarcastic. It leads to funny situations when, for example, I tell a friend they’re really working hard and their sculpture looks great and I’m entirely sincere but they think I’m being condescending. Though the other way around is much funnier: “Why thank you!” … “I was being Sarcastic, you’ve hardly started and your deadline is tomorrow.” … “oh… SHIIIIIIIIIT,”

  • Jeremy Wayne Humble

    So let’s all complain about a character that is set in stone about how he’s made just because we don’t like that he has variations of specials from another character…really? If you all of a sudden would’ve changed Ganon I wouldn’t use him anymore because he’s not how I would know how to use him. Sure he may be cool the way he “could’ve” been but it wouldn’t be Smash’s Ganon.

    Plus Hyrule Warriors has had a much shorter production time and Smash4’s been being worked on forever! To just change everything about him because of a game that started production no more that 2 years ago is asinine.

  • D2K

    In the immortal words of Bart Simpson.

    “Well…you’re damned if you do, and your damned if you don’t.”

    • BlueSunStudios

      I heard that it’s called “Accentuate the Negative” or something along those lines. It seems to be the all the rage these days.

  • Looseenah

    Lol at people who criticize about the clones being there and yet never play with items for their whole lives.

    I’m sorry but I’m legitimately laughing. It took more work to make those items than the clones, and you’re complaining that Lucina/Dark Pit/Dr. Mario shouldn’t be in the game because they’re a waste of space?

  • MagcargoMan

    No, you’re just an apologist. I love how you think it’s illogical to hate lazy copypaste.

  • Tony Johnson

    Man, the whole “Free Dessert” thing is just one giant cop out.

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  • Mamma mia! Dr. Mario was the only cut character to return to SSB4 along with Mewtwo. They should bring Roy back!

  • John H Player

    sword would have been cooler. feels like we are playing the same game that came out for gamecube just with a prettier picture on it now. nothing truly new or updated, outside of a few ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh characters. teleporting purple flame shooting HUGE sword swinging ganon would have been better than “HA! kick!” “HA! Punch” “HAHAHAHA sword up my butt”… that is what i see and hear when i play with ganondorf.

    and on that note… easiest way to play ganon is slide dodge down while foward tilting lol. it is a joke how strong that kills most people. no reason it should boot bowser off the stage at 80% but whatever, it works.

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  • Guest

    Sorry wrong person lol

  • jones benady

    My Name is Jones Benady from Australia..I never believed in Love Spells or Magics until I met this special spell caster DR ODIMILI when i went to Africa to Execute some business..He is really powerful..My wife divorce me with no reason for almost 4 years and i tried all i could to have her back cos i really love her so much but all my effort did not work out.. we met at our early age at the college and we both have feelings for each other and we got married happily for 5 years with no kid and she woke up one morning and she told me she’s going on a divorce..i thought it was a joke and when she came back from work she tender to me a divorce letter and she packed all her loads from my house..i ran mad and i tried all i could to have her back but all did not work out..i was lonely for almost 4 years…So when i told the spell caster what happened he said he will help me and he asked for her full name and her picture..i gave him that..At first i was skeptical but i gave it a try cos h ave tried so many spell casters and there is no solution…so when he finished with the readings,he got back to me that she’s with a man and that man is the reason why she left me…The spell caster said he will help me with a spell that will surely bring her back.but i never believe all this…he told me i will see a positive result within 3 days..3 days later,she called me herself and came to me apologizing and she told me she will come back to me..I cant believe this,it was like a dream cos i never believe this will work out after trying many spell casters and there is no solution..DR ODIMILI The spell caster is so powerful and after that he helped me with a pregnancy spell and my wife got pregnant a month later..we are now happy been together again and with lovely kid..This spell caster has really changed my life and i will forever thankful to him..he has helped many friends too with similar problem too and they are happy and thankful to him..This man is indeed the most powerful spell caster have ever experienced in life..Am Posting this to the Forum in case there is anyone who has similar problem and still looking for a way out…….. CONTACT THIS POWERFUL SPELL CASTER TODAY VIA EMAIL:[email protected]

  • Maria Lizzy

    Your love spell has huge powers! I cant believe

    what’s happening to me! It’s been only 3 weeks

    since you did that spell and Vincent is already after me. Since the last week-end he phoned at least 5 times. I believe he seems to realize his mistakes. It’s absolutely happening as you said!! Thank you! Your work is helping me so much… Without you I would feel so lonely and miserable… Thank you!if you need help contact him via [email protected]

  • Ganondorf was a bit of a disappointment in all honesty, there was plenty of potential to make the character great and after reading through the comments I can see I’m not the only one who thinks so.

  • QuotesDNA

    I’m so happy that i find your blog. Very good navigation
    and very nice and understanding articles and very useful articles. Keep up the
    great work.

    Thanks
    jealousy
    quotes

  • Shaikh Reza

    True confidence leaves no room for jealousy.

    When you know you are Great, you have no need to hate. Jealousy Quotes

  • QuotesDNA

    Nice Collection of Quotes, Love all the Quotes. Check some jealousy quotes for your GF or BF.


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Super Smash Bros. for Wii U boxart

Platform: 3DS
Genre: FIGHTING
Publisher: Nintendo
Developer: Nintendo
Release date: October 3rd 2014 (3DS), Nov. 21, 2014 (Wii U)
OWN IT: 33 [I own this game]
BEAT IT: 15 [I beat this game]
Buy now